False equivalence. One thing is having 1-2 players from other regions and the team having at least 3 players from your home country who speak your language - in your case, German. It is a completely different thing to have 5 foreigners, each from a different country and speaking 5 different languages. You CAN and SHOULD support that team, after all, you don't have that many options. Just admit it. A complete German team (5 players) with enough competitive level to win championships would attract MUCH MORE of your support than any other team from EMEA, full of foreigners from your continent. That's the point... In CS, for example, in a major final between BIG and fnatic, who do you root for???

I agree.

I provided sources to be able to refute your arguments, which were purely based on your own imagination. That's how you argue, not just by typing nonsense like you do, without pointing out any data or proof of what you say. It's important to emphasize that the Brazilian league is the strongest in the world, as this already destroys half of your convictions from the previous post. It's also important to corroborate this by showing that one of the richest clubs in Brazil (Flamengo) has a higher payroll than the average European clubs, so you can't talk the shit you talked about structure, food, routines, etc. I also mentioned that there are clubs that are exceptional even by European standards, such as Real Madrid. The clubs as businesses and their strength in national football. And I refuted your total ignorance about your claim that "we don't have clubs to face the giants of Europe," linking a table with victories by countries in the Club World Cup - here I really got discouraged, as I realized I was talking to a complete layman on the subject (what a surprise).

Brazil has also been very benevolent and charitable (what a wonderful argument, I can use it too) by lending its best athletes to European clubs, thus increasing the level and competitiveness of the championship - as previously stated - it's no use having structure without having the best, if you want to be minimally relevant and have a strong league (whether in sports or e-sports). Poor sportsmanship is a matter of opinion and perspective. Each person has a different opinion and points out things that bother them, which vary from person to person. Until a scientific study is done on this, personal experience cannot be used to corroborate something as an absolute truth. Learn that.

In the second paragraph, I simply narrated events and gave a few opinions, such as when I mentioned CR7 and what he would do at 25 years old if he received a astronomical offer to leave Real Madrid and go to a less competitive league. Regarding Messi, it wasn't an opinion, the link to the article pointing to his desire to win the 5th Champions League (evidence of seeking competitiveness and challenge) is further back.

I didn't say anything beyond mentioning the difference between an ideology and a sentiment. You use the word "jingoism" in a context where it makes no sense. So it's necessary for you to research for yourself the difference between nationalism and patriotism until these concepts crystalize in your mind. I won't explain it again.

I actually forgot to answer those questions (I knew I had forgotten something). Here comes something you might have studied in high school: Protectionism. Which has nothing to do with rooting for EMEA teams because there are no national teams to support. Brazil is not a completely protectionist country, so we have a huge variety of options where we can choose both national and international companies in any sector. There are alternatives. If I only chose national items, your argument would make a little more sense and you could link it to my thoughts on EMEA fans and their team compositions. These are diametrically opposite cases. On the one hand, I contest that supporting five foreigners is forced - due to a lack of options. On the other hand, I have a huge variety of options and can switch between them - it's not forced. Although these are completely horrible examples, they make no sense at all.

Wow, I'm talking to Aristotle

Thank you. If you really are Palestinian, I hope your people find peace!

W

It doesn't change anything, the most influential Portuguese in the world is Brazilian Portuguese. All games and movies are subtitled and dubbed in Brazilian Portuguese. When you have to select a language and "Portuguese" appears - there's the Brazilian flag next to it. It's like EN-US. Most people only speak American English, nobody cares about British English, which is terrible by the way.

Your comfort zone is talking about a continent having more titles than the only relevant country in SA? Hahahahahahaha

And you're not only stupid, but also lazy.

BR Champions: 1

UK Champions: 0

I just answered your question. Saadhak and Frod had to adapt to the language of Brazilians. In Fnatic, players speak EN-US because it is the most known and influential language in the world... What's your point here?

It's either too stupid or lacking in character to take the discussion in this direction. Brazilians aren't even a race. There's no way to distinguish them, let alone classify people as "Brazilians and non-Brazilians."

See how you have no knowledge about what you're talking about? No. Saadhak and Frod communicate in Portuguese.

A team composed of only 1 or 2 foreigners, but who still speak the same language is different from a team composed of 5 foreigners, each speaking a different language. You are just avoiding and afraid to answer my previous post in which you yourself said "not reading all". Read and respond. Stop behaving like a victim.

It has nothing to do with nationalism, you probably don't even know what that is. You're acting like a communist who plays the victim/racism/xenophobia card when they can't counter argue against being strongly attacked in their personal beliefs.

I noticed that most of those who attack me don't have a team from their own country to support, so it's understandable that when I say these things, I directly attack a belief rooted in some that "it's cool to support 5 foreigners. I support them like never before. No patriotism here!" - you just haven't thought yet that this concept/thought of yours was created in a completely forced way due to lack of choice and options. You can't choose to support a team from the UK (your country) instead of any other team from EMEA, because you simply don't have that option. You MUST ATTACK those who defend the idea that the feeling is much better when there are 5 players from your own country. But it's like you're trying to hide the sun with a sieve. You have to defend the idea that "I have fun and support 5 people who don't even speak my language", because it's the only basis that sustains your support for any team. Without this concept formed forcibly due to lack of choice, you wouldn't have anyone to support. Lack of choice is the key word here.

I have nothing against those who support a continent. Just admit that you do it, and if there were a competitive team composed only of players from your country, you would support the national team more than 5 foreigners from any EMEA team.

By whom?

As I said before 'Football wasn’t developed enough to possess technologies capable of providing any competitive advantage'. This is not an opinion. The football technologies used by the wealthiest European clubs (currently) did not exist in the past. In purely structural matters, everything was level. You confuse verb tenses or manipulate them in a way that is convenient for you to think you are refuting something beyond ghosts in your mind. With globalization and football development, ways of gaining advantages on the field began to emerge (here the roles of clubs in athlete formation come in) beyond purely individual and collective skills. "Who gets the credit for developing and maintaining that competitiveness in the scene? Is it not the EU clubs?" Just to clarify, according to IFFHS, the strongest league in the world is the Brazilian one: (https://www.iffhs.com/posts/2483). Answering your question: competitiveness is maintained because the best players are there, and the best (the vast majority) are imported from other regions. The fairest credit we can give to European clubs is that they have enough money to buy players from anywhere in the world to keep their league always at a high level. The MLS, for example, has structure but lacks competitiveness. No player aspires to play in the American league because it is very weak. And it is weak because it does not have the best players. The club's structure is just a drop in the ocean. As for Brazilian clubs: as you yourself say, it is a two-way street - we contribute to the evolution and maintenance of European football by exporting our best players while Brazilian clubs benefit by earning billions per year with player transfers. The biggest Brazilian clubs are not behind the European average when it comes to training centers, food, structure, etc. I don't know where you got this completely wrong idea. It is a fact that European giants, like Real Madrid, have a unique quality, but they have a high standard even for most other clubs in their league. To finish this part - Flamengo, for example, one of the richest teams in Brazil, in 2022 was the 18th club with the highest payroll in the world. (https://www.uol.com.br/esporte/futebol/colunas/rafael-reis/2022/08/26/fla-tem-a-18-maior-folha-salarial-do-mundo-4-brasileiros-estao-no-top-50.htm) Not to mention that there are clubs managed as if they were companies (SAF), where they manage to have a large net annual income enough to provide an excellent quality structure. (https://www.scielo.br/j/rac/a/qCtMycKvdT7rSq5cgF3sPHM/)
"can i say that no Brazilian club inspite of having 5x population and craze behind football can create and sustain a club that can stand up to big EU clubs?"
With this question, you show again your total lack of knowledge about the subject. The only way we can know if the best Brazilian club currently is better than the best European club currently is through the Club World Cup that takes place every year. Well, Brazil has already won this championship TEN times, against giants like Real Madrid, Barcelona, Liverpool, Milan, Manchester, among others. We are only behind Spain, which has won 12 times. And this is largely due to Real Madrid and their crop of good players. (https://ge.globo.com/futebol/mundial-de-clubes/noticia/2023/02/11/mundial-de-clubes-lista-completa-de-campeoes-e-finais.ghtml)

Football players are competitive athletes by nature and often prioritize the pursuit of victory and personal success over other considerations, including higher salaries. For these players, competition is the essence of sport, and the pursuit of victory is a powerful motivation. Many players choose to play for teams that offer the opportunity to compete at a high level, even if it means earning less money than they could elsewhere. As I mentioned before, athletes PRIORITIZE competitiveness and depending on the circumstances, they may opt for money. Cristiano Ronaldo is 38 years old, nearing retirement and no longer has the same stamina as he did when he was younger. His choices are limited, so deciding to play for a less competitive club that offers more money is a circumstance that would not have been taken into consideration when he was 25 years old and one of the best in the world. At that time, even if he received a billionaire offer to play in the Middle East with a higher salary than he was receiving, he would certainly prioritize Real Madrid to continue playing in Europe because he was at his peak and knew that the competitiveness of playing in a high-level league spoke louder than the best salaries. In summary: CR7 "choosing money" is a circumstance of events that happened and led him to make that decision. This exception was included in the argumentation of the previous post. After all, I am not crazy enough to deny that many opt for money. Messi wanting to return to Barcelona and earn less than he does at PSG is further irrefutable proof that money has no weight on the athlete's decision. The PSG project failed. They hired several top players and still failed to achieve their goal of becoming champions of the Champions League.

Again here, you use personal experiences and particular impressions to express an opinion as if it were an absolute truth or deserving of some credit. Politics are based on narratives, not truths/lies. Whoever is in power holds the current narrative. I thought you knew that. When you talk about nationalism, you demonstrate again that you don't understand anything about what you're talking about. Just to clarify: Nationalism is a political ideology that defends national identity as something primordial and prioritizes the interests of the nation over individual interests or those of other nations. There are people who do not identify with this ideology and who may have different political views. It has nothing to do with patriotism, which is basically love and loyalty to the homeland, respect for the country, etc. Patriotism does not necessarily involve a belief and is the closest thing you can correlate with Brazilian e-sports fans. Nothing to do with Brazilian politics and the nationalism 'sold' by other countries. When you state that "Brazilian teams don't buy European players," you show again how ignorant you are and speak whatever comes to mind, without any foundation. FURIA has a team with American players, European players in various games. A Brazilian organization. If you want to follow them closely, just go to FURIA's English Twitter: (https://twitter.com/FURIA_USA) One of the best Valorant coaches was bought by Loud, and he is... American. I hope I have answered everything and clarified the topics.

Sacy
Less
Pancada
Aspas
Saadhak

If these guys train well, they might be able to win the Champions someday

The Brazilian didn't benefit from European training facilities because they weren't models or pioneers in anything related to football. Football wasn't developed enough to possess technologies capable of providing any competitive advantage. You just made a mistaken statement here. "Brazilian clubs made money from selling players" - OBVIOUS? That doesn't change anything, I don't even know what your point was here. I don't know what your problem with reading comprehension is, but in none of my previous comments did I imply that it's "Europe's fault" or that it's "Brazil vs. the world". That's just in your head and has nothing to do with the points we're arguing. I mentioned the 20 years without titles (just like the first 3 World Cups) just to reinforce that playing in Europe isn't a quality benchmark, supporting the evidence that our best time was when Brazilians played in Brazilian leagues - a coincidence. I don't need to summarize this again, right? Just read the first point of my previous comment, It's very clear. You're very confusing when trying to convey your ideas and you confuse sentiment with rationality.

Here you are mistaken again. Source: https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/12378621/lionel-messi-reveals-he-chose-to-join-paris-saint-germain-in-order-to-win-fifth-champions-league Messi and Neymar went to PSG to win the Champions League. At the time it was a big challenge and they (PSG management) were building a competitive team to try to win the Champions League for the first time. An ambitious project. Obviously, CR7 chose to play in the Middle East for money, and I didn't even question that. If you read what I wrote earlier carefully, you wouldn't have tried to refute me with this senseless argument. What I said was - when CR7 chose money, he was heavily criticized. Why was he criticized? Remember? Exactly, because there is low competitiveness and little visibility in the championships there. Athletes PRIORITIZE competitiveness. Depending on the circumstances, it MAY BE that he chooses money and goes to play, I don't know, in China.

Here I can conclude by saying that personal experiences do not serve as a scientific parameter or a ground on which you will base your absolute truths and misconceptions. It only takes one person who has gone through and experienced the same things as you and brings an opinion completely contrary to yours for your argument to completely lose its validity. Again, I have nothing to argue here due to a lack of useful information.

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Give me some time, I'm going to watch a beautiful football match and I'll respond to the pending messages soon.

It doesn't have to be a football team, but it's much less interesting to root for 5 foreigners from 5 different countries who speak 5 different languages. But I understand, that's the only option for most people who root for teams in EMEA.

True, how sad

These are just facts: Brazil's most successful period was when Brazilian players only played in Brazilian leagues. It was the strongest league and we grew based on our own parameters. There is no disputing that. At that time, Brazilian football was unparalleled and unique. Dribbles that no one knew (pedalada, elastico, carretilha), plays that no one knew and tactical formations that no one knew. There was no one with a similar playing style to ours precisely because our football was not exported and no one had any idea how to combat it - It was like Korea in LoL before Koreans started to be exported to strengthen other leagues. Over time, the first European clubs began to import the "joga bonito". The level of world football began to be equalized and that's when we suffered for 24 years without winning a World Cup (the longest period, in fact) - between 1970 and 1994. We managed to become champions again in 1994 and 2002 due to a generation in which Brazil simply had stars in every position on the field. A dream team 5.0. Losing with the players we had at that time would be unimaginable... There is a very clear causality relationship through the facts narrated above.

I won't dwell on this, it's just reality: most players choose competitiveness over money. That's why when CR7 chose to play in a league in the Middle East, he was heavily criticized. Regarding the French league: not even the French care about this league. Neymar and Messi joined PSG to win the Champions League... 20 million more or less doesn't make a difference for these guys, they're already wealthy enough.

Here I think you got confused: when I talk about supporting EU teams out of lack of choice, I meant that a German, for example, doesn't have the option to support a German esports team simply because that team doesn't exist. They have no choice - they either support teams from EMEA (their continent/region) or they don't support anyone. A Brazilian player can play wherever they want but that won't necessarily attract Brazilian fans to their respective team. From there, you mixed in an opinion I gave about e-sports (in the previous post) with the Europe-Brazil relationship in football, so I don't need to answer something confusing...

xxx

I stated facts, I didn't say I'm proud of them...

I didn't know I needed to explain that when I say 'identification', it also includes nationality. How am I going to identify with an Asian team to the point of rooting for them, for example? You need a lesson in interpretation. The context says it all.

"There is no evidence to say Brazilian players were better when they played for BR clubs"

Is three World Cup wins not evidence enough? Football is purely based on results. Is 20 years without a World Cup win not enough? During this drought, the Brazilian national team was composed of 80% of players who played outside of Brazil. Zero World Cups.

"if that was the case why doesnt your current squad just field BR club players - or are they not as good as the ones who go to EU clubs?"

Currently, the situation is different, and it's not just about money anymore, but because the best players are in Europe. Even if the MLS paid more than European teams, the average American player wouldn't refuse an offer from Chelsea to play in the Premier League, for example. Competitiveness > money. That's why few players go to China, despite them paying on average much more than European teams.

"How do Brazilians win so many club trophies in EU?"

I didn't understand that point, the Brazilian goes to any team aiming for titles... He can be bad and still win a Champions League, the quality of a single player doesn't define the result.

"Why cant u accept the fact that EU is not xenophobic enough to accept BR players and train them and give them money?"

It's not like Europe is doing us a favor by hiring someone. They buy our players because in Brazil we have a good crop for any position on the field, and so they seek to have better results in their respective leagues. Brazilian players accept because most of the time the salary is satisfactory and they will have chances to play against the bests. It's a two-way street, everyone wins.

"There are people who enjoy/support stuff outside of their national/cultural/racial boundaries"

You can support it as much as you want, but many can't admit that they do it because they have no other choice.

So you think like me...

I'm talking about Brazil and World Cups. I repeat: the most successful era of the Brazilian national team was the Pele era, when players only played in the Brazilian league. During that time, they won 3 World Cups. 3 is greater than 2. Brazil has won 5 World Cups in total. Since they started exporting our players, we haven't been able to surpass what was achieved during the golden years of Brazilian football.

Stop trying to argue as if you understood the subject. I would never have the audacity to argue sports knowledge about basketball or NFL with you. Let's stick to our own areas of expertise...

In summary, if there was a strong and competitive UK team that could win championships, you would root for them more than any other team in EMEA, right?

They have been playing there for years and yet Brazil has not won the World Cup for over 20 years. Maybe that's the problem, isn't it? This argument is unsustainable. Brazil's most successful era was when Brazilian players only played in the Brazilian league.

First: People can do that, but it seems like they don't like to admit that they do it because they don't have any other choice. Especially Europeans. It's not like a Spaniard wakes up and thinks, "what a lovely day, today I'm going to root for my country's team in Valorant/LOL/CS (whatever)." They simply don't have that alternative and, due to this circumstance, they are led to root for a region (EMEA) with foreign players from several different countries. This is not an opinion, it's just a hard truth to swallow. But gradually, they will be able to overcome this. Second: I root for Loud not because they are Brazilian, since Furia and Mibr are also Brazilian teams and I don't root for them. I root for IDENTIFICATION. Did something happen between September 1st and 20th that made you lose your sanity to the point of not understanding my point? Look at the thread title!

Brazil won the first 3 World Cups when the strongest league was the Brazilian league, and no one even dreamed of going to Europe because the best were here. You don't even know what you're talking about. Focus on basketball and NFL and stop embarrassing yourself with this kind of dumb statement.

As I've said before, if Brazil didn't have any competitive team, I would certainly root for LATAM. But that's a CIRCUMSTANTIAL situation. Voluntarily, no Brazilian prefers to root for other teams, having a team composed of players from their own country.

You will excuse me, but if a person has a team from their own country to support and chooses to support a region instead, that person is an exception.

In Portugal, they speak European Portuguese which is quite different and even difficult for a Brazilian to understand. A country the size of a grain of rice managed to colonize Brazil and another the size of a rat managed to colonize the US. Now, they are infinitely less influential than their former colonies, respectively.

W

I don't know what's the difficulty that the majority has in admitting that they root for a region and don't have a choice to support a team from their own country simply because that team doesn't exist.

I forgot about the Poles, didn't read it all but you also have/had someone to root for and didn't need to force yourself to like "diversity" just to have a pretext to support a region of various foreigners from different countries.

W!

I don't know either, can you explain to me why the majority here got angry with this FACT?

W

Brazil, the best and greatest country in football. Second place goes to Germany and Italy

Not even the US speak their own language and yet they do whatever they want in Europe, what does that have to do with what I said?

Oh, I remember the players from Sentinels, it makes sense for the American to feel upset.

I assume you think that because you don't have a country to root for and are forced to put nationalism aside to pretend to like diversity in order to support a region with players from various different countries where most of them don't speak Turkish? Yeah, if Brazil were so weak that it didn't have a competitive team, I would also root for LATAM...

My life is not so miserable that I have to root for Argentines, Chileans, Peruvians or any other country in my continent. That's the point, there's no need to change the subject to try to cover up how angry and frustrated you feel about admitting that you root for a region (EMEA) because you have no other choice. There have never been and never will be 5 Greeks good enough in any sport or e-sport for you to be even remotely nationalistic. And there will never be any famous Greek streamer who speaks Greek. You have to settle for consuming content in English. And no, it's not a choice.

Wow, I was refuted

The theory is beautiful. In practice: there's no European football team with less than 6-7 players from the home country; most European esports teams are made up of players of different nationalities (here, local talent doesn't matter); It seems that your excessive insecurity and fear about something we don't know is preventing you from seeing the obvious: your argument is rubbish.

For Europe, it's impossible to be about countries. It's not like you have choices. Lol.