OH NO NO NO LMAO.
But actually, if Gen G beats sen 2-0 or 2-1 here they're probably better than fnatic (iceland peak) UNLESS Sen make a lower bracket comeback and then roll Gen G.
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Gen G >> Fnatic
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EU_quiet [#2]They haven't even beat SEN yet... and that's not how it works you dumbass
Ik they havent beat sen yet, but wdym its not how it works? lets say gen G wins here and then sen flops in the LB, how would that not mean that its extremely likely that Gen G >> fnatic?
ihitthat [#3]youre dumb sometime teams have a bad day now stfu
I know that bro... I literally said that in my OG post. Sen could redeem themselves
shadowzin272 [#8]theres no such thing as in transitive property in esports, not even sports
+1, im sure SEN prepped more for FNATIC and put more effort into those matches than they do in this game vs GenG
shadowzin272 [#8]theres no such thing as in transitive property in esports, not even sports
Obviously not 1 to 1, but it definitely exists on some degree logically speaking. It's just logical, and 99% likely, obviously not factual, because we will never know who would win, anything could happen, but we're talking about how likely certain things are.
Example, if envy beats 100T tomorrow then its 99% likely they would've beat V1 as well.
shadowzin272 [#8]theres no such thing as in transitive property in esports, not even sports
not everyone understands that. Sad
mattgg2015 [#10]+1, im sure SEN prepped more for FNATIC and put more effort into those matches than they do in this game vs GenG
That's just an unproven and unlikely assumption.. Of course they'd put in a lot of time and prep into this, this is important as fuck too, they need to win to qualify to Playoffs
dignityx3 [#7]Ik they havent beat sen yet, but wdym its not how it works? lets say gen G wins here and then sen flops in the LB, how would that not mean that its extremely likely that Gen G >> fnatic?
holy shit insane logic, well then since g2 managed to win against fnatic more convincingly than sentinels that makes g2 > sentinels.
Acend > FPX > G2 > SEN > Fnatic
dignityx3 [#13]That's just an unproven and unlikely assumption.. Of course they'd put in a lot of time and prep into this, this is important as fuck too, they need to win to qualify to Playoffs
by your logic of unproven and unlikely assumption
its UNPROVEN that geng > fnatic because they havent played each other
dignityx3 [#7]Ik they havent beat sen yet, but wdym its not how it works? lets say gen G wins here and then sen flops in the LB, how would that not mean that its extremely likely that Gen G >> fnatic?
literally basing rankings off of one game, so no its not likely
gutszeraa [#14]when did people in esports just stop using the eye test and just started spouting braindead purely results oriented takes that have no nuance.
"fnatic got no maps against SEN but serenity got a map off SEN during an open qualifier so now SRN>Fnatic"
If you wanna talk then at least use proper examples bro lmao. That SRN example is not valid at all because its open qualifiers. Everyone loses maps, and you dont got footage on the teams.
Losing maps and series against tier 1 teams that you can prepare for and that prepare for you however, is obviously the real discussion to be had.
Your logic is really disingenuous tbh
Daniveus [#15]holy shit insane logic, well then since g2 managed to win against fnatic more convincingly than sentinels that makes g2 > sentinels.
Acend > FPX > G2 > SEN > Fnatic
not necessarily.. fnatic hasnt evolved at all. they've gotten worse. you have no proof that g2 > sen or that its even likely bc fnc coudlnt even take any maps off of sen. G2 winning more convincingly doesnt matter
HackNaija [#17]literally basing rankings off of one game, so no its not likely
Im not though, I literally said IF they flop in the LB as well
shadowzin272 [#16]by your logic of unproven and unlikely assumption
its UNPROVEN that geng > fnatic because they havent played each other
Yeah, i know that lmao. It's unproven, but of course it is, it's hypothetical. I'm just saying that its very likely based on the logic I provided.
dignityx3 [#18]If you wanna talk then at least use proper examples bro lmao. That SRN example is not valid at all because its open qualifiers. Everyone loses maps, and you dont got footage on the teams.
Losing maps and series against tier 1 teams that you can prepare for and that prepare for you however, is obviously the real discussion to be had.
Your logic is really disingenuous tbh
And how is this map loss against GenG any more valid? If you wanna talk about preparation, NA teams have significantly more practice and generally play a lot more against SEN so obviously Fnatic who could only watch outdated vods of SEN and only had 2 weeks of prep for iceland will not do as well against SEN compared to SEN's domestic rivals. Plus, I'd probably say that SEN rn does not look as good as they did in iceland, but obv thats just based off the eye test and subjectivity
gutszeraa [#22]And how is this map loss against GenG any more valid? If you wanna talk about preparation, NA teams have significantly more practice and generally play a lot more against SEN so obviously Fnatic who could only watch outdated vods of SEN and only had 2 weeks of prep for iceland will not do as well against SEN compared to SEN's domestic rivals. Plus, I'd probably say that SEN rn does not look as good as they did in iceland, but obv thats just based off the eye test and subjectivity
Because Gen G took down a top 8 NA team (andbox) ? and gen g are definitely a solid team now? Also, "NA teams have significantly more practice and generally play a lot more against SEN so obviously Fnatic who could only watch outdated vods of SEN and only had 2 weeks of prep for iceland will not do as well against SEN compared to SEN's domestic rivals"
this is not a valid argument at all lmao. all the teams at iceland had equal chances to play sen exclusively if they wanted to, even more than NA. scrimbux dont matter either way. EU had the same preparation options as NA, that isnt an argument at all.
NA takes maps off Sen because they're just a better region, and more competitive, but its extremely close between EU and NA.
dignityx3 [#23]Because Gen G took down a top 8 NA team (andbox) ? and gen g are definitely a solid team now? Also, "NA teams have significantly more practice and generally play a lot more against SEN so obviously Fnatic who could only watch outdated vods of SEN and only had 2 weeks of prep for iceland will not do as well against SEN compared to SEN's domestic rivals"
this is not a valid argument at all lmao. all the teams at iceland had equal chances to play sen exclusively if they wanted to, even more than NA. scrimbux dont matter either way. EU had the same preparation options as NA, that isnt an argument at all.
NA takes maps off Sen because they're just a better region, and more competitive, but its extremely close between EU and NA.
"this is not a valid argument at all lmao. all the teams at iceland had equal chances to play sen exclusively if they wanted to, even more than NA. scrimbux dont matter either way. EU had the same preparation options as NA, that isnt an argument at all."
oh my god you just missed my entire point, im not trying to excuse fnatics loss, im saying the reason NA generally is more competitive with SEN compared to how the international scene did against them is due to NA having significantly more practice against SEN than the teams at iceland did. GenG has probably scrimmed and played against SEN SIGNIFICANTLY more than Fnatic, so no shit theyd be able to take a map at some point. I'm not trying to discredit GenG, cuz they played very well, but saying "oh well this team in NA took who has played and probably scrimmed against SEN several times more than fnatic took a map against SEN and fnatic couldnt, so obviously GenG is better than fnatic" is just stupid
gutszeraa [#25]"this is not a valid argument at all lmao. all the teams at iceland had equal chances to play sen exclusively if they wanted to, even more than NA. scrimbux dont matter either way. EU had the same preparation options as NA, that isnt an argument at all."
oh my god you just missed my entire point, im not trying to excuse fnatics loss, im saying the reason NA generally is more competitive with SEN compared to how the international scene did against them is due to NA having significantly more practice against SEN than the teams at iceland did. GenG has probably scrimmed and played against SEN SIGNIFICANTLY more than Fnatic, so no shit theyd be able to take a map at some point. I'm not trying to discredit GenG, cuz they played very well, but saying "oh well this team in NA took who has played and probably scrimmed against SEN several times more than fnatic took a map against SEN and fnatic couldnt, so obviously GenG is better than fnatic" is just stupid
"h my god you just missed my entire point, im not trying to excuse fnatics loss, im saying the reason NA generally is more competitive with SEN compared to how the international scene did against them is due to NA having significantly more practice against SEN than the teams at iceland did."
no, thats exactly the 'point' im debunking here.. It doesnt matter that NA teams play more, it literally doesnt. you act as if they play 24/7, no, they dont. Scrimbux dont matter either. They're just better teams than EU mostly, but again, its very close between the regions. Theres no excuse for Fnatic not even being able to take a map off them lmao. They had the same amount of time to prepare as any other NA team would, and even more tbh. Literally 2 weeks.
"GenG has probably scrimmed and played against SEN SIGNIFICANTLY more than Fnatic, so no shit theyd be able to take a map at some point."
Unproven, and either way, both have same prep possibilities. Fnatic probably had more tbh, 2 weeks in iceland compared to 4 days in NA finding out the bracket. Scrims dont matter once again. You cant just say 'no shit they'd take a map', no, taking a map is significant and it shows that the teams are in close contention. FNC not taking a map just shows they're much worse off.
dignityx3 [#21]Yeah, i know that lmao. It's unproven, but of course it is, it's hypothetical. I'm just saying that its very likely based on the logic I provided.
its not logical though
dignityx3 [#27]"h my god you just missed my entire point, im not trying to excuse fnatics loss, im saying the reason NA generally is more competitive with SEN compared to how the international scene did against them is due to NA having significantly more practice against SEN than the teams at iceland did."
no, thats exactly the 'point' im debunking here.. It doesnt matter that NA teams play more, it literally doesnt. you act as if they play 24/7, no, they dont. Scrimbux dont matter either. They're just better teams than EU mostly, but again, its very close between the regions. Theres no excuse for Fnatic not even being able to take a map off them lmao. They had the same amount of time to prepare as any other NA team would, and even more tbh. Literally 2 weeks.
"GenG has probably scrimmed and played against SEN SIGNIFICANTLY more than Fnatic, so no shit theyd be able to take a map at some point."
Unproven, and either way, both have same prep possibilities. Fnatic probably had more tbh, 2 weeks in iceland compared to 4 days in NA finding out the bracket. Scrims dont matter once again. You cant just say 'no shit they'd take a map', no, taking a map is significant and it shows that the teams are in close contention. FNC not taking a map just shows they're much worse off.
it doesnt matter that NA teams have played significantly more matches against SEN????? This is just stupid. More time playing against SEN= more tendencies to pick up on, easier to pick up on trends, better grasp of their defaults/strats, etc.
"Unproven, and either way, both have same prep possibilities. Fnatic probably had more tbh, 2 weeks in iceland compared to 4 days in NA finding out the bracket. Scrims dont matter once again."
Unproven yet still likely. And the results of scrims may not matter, but what you find in those scrims and what tendencies you pick up from scrimming DOES matter. Just please don't speak again, even shahz and the players on SEN themselves don't agree with you.
gutszeraa [#29]it doesnt matter that NA teams have played significantly more matches against SEN????? This is just stupid. More time playing against SEN= more tendencies to pick up on, easier to pick up on trends, better grasp of their defaults/strats, etc.
"Unproven, and either way, both have same prep possibilities. Fnatic probably had more tbh, 2 weeks in iceland compared to 4 days in NA finding out the bracket. Scrims dont matter once again."
Unproven yet still likely. And the results of scrims may not matter, but what you find in those scrims and what tendencies you pick up from scrimming DOES matter. Just please don't speak again, even shahz and the players on SEN themselves don't agree with you.
yeah, it doesnt matter at all, because both have same prep possibilities. Its not likely, either bro. You can find many tendencies and info from VODs, once again. 100T doesnt even scrim against sen lmao and took a map and was 2 rounds away from 2-0ing them. I couldnt care less what the sen players say, they're biased towards themselves and its obvious. It doesnt work like "Pro Opinion = 100% fact Instantly and you cannot question it" thats just not how it works.
dignityx3 [#19]not necessarily.. fnatic hasnt evolved at all. they've gotten worse. you have no proof that g2 > sen or that its even likely bc fnc coudlnt even take any maps off of sen. G2 winning more convincingly doesnt matter
If that is so, then why can't we say that sentinels are the ones who have gotten worse?
And that maps argument is so dumb, soniqs got one map off sentinels but got smashed in the other two, fnatic vs sentinels every map was extremely close, it's obvious that fnatic and sentinels are more evenly matched u don't need maps to prove it.
Daniveus [#31]If that is so, then why can't we say that sentinels are the ones who have gotten worse?
And that maps argument is so dumb, soniqs got one map off sentinels but got smashed in the other two, fnatic vs sentinels every map was extremely close, it's obvious that fnatic and sentinels are more evenly matched u don't need maps to prove it.
Of course its possible that they got worse, but we dont know that because we havent seen their LB run yet. We know that Sentinels always come in clutch in the LB, but we have to wait and see. If they do bad in LB and flop, then we can make the conclusion they've gotten worse. The soniqs example isnt really valid, as that was sentinels' first tourney match in months, and almost every team lost a map as well. Soniqs isnt a tier 1 team either, and sen probably didnt practise enough/ was rusty. If you wanna use a valid example, use one from actual tier 1 tourneys like challengers/playoffs. But oh wait, NA teams took maps off sen in playoffs as well. other top NA teams could've beaten fnatic at iceland, like Envy, 100T and C9.
dignityx3 [#30]yeah, it doesnt matter at all, because both have same prep possibilities. Its not likely, either bro. You can find many tendencies and info from VODs, once again. 100T doesnt even scrim against sen lmao and took a map and was 2 rounds away from 2-0ing them. I couldnt care less what the sen players say, they're biased towards themselves and its obvious. It doesnt work like "Pro Opinion = 100% fact Instantly and you cannot question it" thats just not how it works.
You keep saying "it doesnt matter that theyve played more matches because they have the same prep possibilities" yet past matches themselves are prep possibilities. do you think that fnatic had the same prep possibilities in the grand finals as they did when they first faced SEN? of course not, not only did they have an extra vod, but they also had a lot of stuff they learned in the game while it was playing out, which is something NA teams have significantly more of. Just stop it bro
dignityx3 [#33]Of course its possible that they got worse, but we dont know that because we havent seen their LB run yet. We know that Sentinels always come in clutch in the LB, but we have to wait and see. If they do bad in LB and flop, then we can make the conclusion they've gotten worse. The soniqs example isnt really valid, as that was sentinels' first tourney match in months, and almost every team lost a map as well. Soniqs isnt a tier 1 team either, and sen probably didnt practise enough/ was rusty. If you wanna use a valid example, use one from actual tier 1 tourneys like challengers/playoffs. But oh wait, NA teams took maps off sen in playoffs as well. other top NA teams could've beaten fnatic at iceland, like Envy, 100T and C9.
here u come again with the maps argument -_-
gutszeraa [#34]You keep saying "it doesnt matter that theyve played more matches because they have the same prep possibilities" yet past matches themselves are prep possibilities. do you think that fnatic had the same prep possibilities in the grand finals as they did when they first faced SEN? of course not, not only did they have an extra vod, but they also had a lot of stuff they learned in the game while it was playing out, which is something NA teams have significantly more of. Just stop it bro
Nah, past matches are not prep possibilities because teams evolve and adapt their strats and tendencies. Unless it was like literally a few days ago then it doesnt count. Fnatic had even more prep possibilities in the grand finals, probably more than any other NA team, because more vods, more tendencies, yet still couldnt take a map. This alone disproves your argument of 'scrimming and playing matches'.
Daniveus [#35]here u come again with the maps argument -_-
That's a gross over simplification of what I just said but ok.. lmao.
dignityx3 [#37]That's a gross over simplification of what I just said but ok.. lmao.
KEKWait some baiters are actually just stupid
dignityx3 [#36]Nah, past matches are not prep possibilities because teams evolve and adapt their strats and tendencies. Unless it was like literally a few days ago then it doesnt count. Fnatic had even more prep possibilities in the grand finals, probably more than any other NA team, because more vods, more tendencies, yet still couldnt take a map. This alone disproves your argument of 'scrimming and playing matches'.
"Nah, past matches are not prep possibilities because teams evolve and adapt their strats and tendencies." this literally just isnt always true, there are so many instances where teams just straight up fail to identify their tendencies or have identified them and just straight up failed to fix them. SEN had the same default on split attack with dapr and sinatraa playing together towards A main and A ramp for like 5 months. 100T had the same issue for months where they would crumble from mid aggression on ascent attack. Plus, sometimes tendencies just straight up are way more subtle than the things I listed and can only really be picked up on in a game. Since you have to do vod reviews through twitch vods, its way harder to pick up on tendencies than it is when youre playing against a team in real time.
Gomes255 [#38]KEKWait some baiters are actually just stupid
Cringe.. imagine having such a superiority complex that you assume people are baiting without even trying to provide any valid counter-argument. You need help lmao
dignityx3 [#37]That's a gross over simplification of what I just said but ok.. lmao.
Ok, ur comment was:
excuses for why sentinels are losing against 'not tier 1 team' but we still can't conclude that they have gotten worse because they have not been eliminated yet...
Then maps
Daniveus [#41]Ok, ur comment was:
excuses for why sentinels are losing against 'not tier 1 team' but we still can't conclude that they have gotten worse because they have not been eliminated yet...
Then maps
I mean thats a simplification still but yeah, thats basically what Im saying. Its not like you've even said anything to counter it so...
dignityx3 [#40]Cringe.. imagine having such a superiority complex that you assume people are baiting without even trying to provide any valid counter-argument. You need help lmao
"Cringe, why don't you just feed the baiter, aka get baited?"
Gomes255 [#43]"Cringe, why don't you just feed the baiter, aka get baited?"
sure, whatever helps feed your superiority complex bro.
dignityx3 [#13]That's just an unproven and unlikely assumption.. Of course they'd put in a lot of time and prep into this, this is important as fuck too, they need to win to qualify to Playoffs
u really think that SEN, even with their 1 month break before iceland, prepared as much for the grand finals for the first international lan as they did in a closed qualifier round 1 match vs GenG?
mattgg2015 [#47]u really think that SEN, even with their 1 month break before iceland, prepared as much for the grand finals for the first international lan as they did in a closed qualifier round 1 match vs GenG?
yeah sure. they dont underestimate people and shaz does insane prep work for literally every team he plays. its not like they had huge prep possibilities either, because they only knew who would be in the grand finals the day of, so they had a day to prep. they had 4 days this time
JustEnjoying [#48]still better then fnatic i guess
I mean most top tier NA teams are probably better than fnatic either way because they're trash rn and not as good as they were during iceland. But even fnatic at their iceland peak would lose to some NA teams bc the NA teams took maps off sentinels right before they went to iceland while FNC couldnt.
dignityx3 [#49]yeah sure. they dont underestimate people and shaz does insane prep work for literally every team he plays. its not like they had huge prep possibilities either, because they only knew who would be in the grand finals the day of, so they had a day to prep. they had 4 days this time
is that insane amount of prep the reason they played yoru in map 1?
also im sure SEN prepared a lot for fnatic over their month break, given that they were guaranteed to play fnatic as long as they beat KRU
bagagarbage [#51]wouldnt say that. losing iceland has more to lose on sentinels, so they played that safely and better. dont really think winning this one matters to them. it looks like they're experimenting their changes to see which ones they want to keep.
yeah but that doesnt necessarily mean they did more prep lmao. again, they had 1 day for the grand finals and 4 days for this match. winning this one definitely matters to them wdym? they want to go to berlin.
mattgg2015 [#52]is that insane amount of prep the reason they played yoru in map 1?
also im sure SEN prepared a lot for fnatic over their month break, given that they were guaranteed to play fnatic as long as they beat KRU
huh? what does yoru have to do with anything? he's a viable pick on bind tbh, and sentinels are showing that. They've just changed their comp.
"also im sure SEN prepared a lot for fnatic over their month break, given that they were guaranteed to play fnatic as long as they beat KRU"
not necessarily, this is an unproven assumption. they probably did a bit of prep on every team because they had no way of knowing what teams were the best before the matches actually happened.
Xaster15 [#57]IF SEN LOST TO GEN G 2-0 IT WILL BECOME GENG>FNC
A FCKING BIG NOOOOO!
ITS ON LAN OK, AND SENTINELS DONT HAVE A VOD REEATCHING HOW GENG REALLY PLAY AND PING BECAUSE TENZ ON CANADA WHILE PLAYING NA SERVER YOU SEE HIS PING 50 -60
GEN G VS SENTINELS ON LAN DU U THINK GEN G WILL WIN??
u need to relax and make proper sentences
plas [#58]u need to relax and make proper sentences
Dude I'm angry making a nonsense argument on top of these comments
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