18

How Patch 5.12 silently finished off a dying agent

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#1
4rrowlol

Going to make a longer YT video explaining this all in detail once I get back to the states from India, but for now I'll post a simpler, compact version of why Patch 5.12 put the final nail in Skye's coffin and nobody seemed to notice.

Everyone’s already given their two cents on the major changes in this patch, how Chamber is now dead, Killjoy is set to make the comeback of a lifetime, and what Sage’s place will be in the future, but nobody has talked about Skye at all, which is kind of concerning because it almost seems like nobody even noticed she's pretty much a dead agent.

First of all, Skye's pickrate over the last few major tournaments, from Masters Berlin to the recent RBHG3 has fallen from 58% to 16%, despite there not being a significant nerf to her this whole time. The only map teams ever played Skye was Bind, and even in mid-high elo ranked (D3+), the only maps you would ever see Skye on is Bind and Breeze, with some Haven sprinkled there. The only time Skye was picked in RBHG3 outside of Bind was once on Pearl, courtesy of C9 getting humiliated by T2 EU team FOKUS and losing the series, so not a great track record.

This happened due to both a change in overall playstyle and an initiator power creep. As teams changed from the simple Sentinels-style 5 man site hits to more defaults and split pushes, utility became more important, the reason why double duelist died, and why Skye started to explode in popularity in the first place. But as executes got more and more complex, teams started to favor Kay/O and Breach over Skye for flashes, and the introduction of Fade pretty much killed the viability of Skye's information, as the Prowlers and Nightfall eclipsed the Dog and Seekers, and the information given by flashes has always been unreliable.

The one area where Skye's flashes were better than any other was pop-flashing through smokes and walls, but popflashing with Skye and Kay/O got hard nerfed with patch 5.07, lasting only 1 second. Kay/O doesn't really have a problem with this, since his long flash is still really good, and with the proper lineup you can make it work like a regular underhand from before, but Skye's long flash is slow, easy to dodge, difficult to coordinate compared to Kay/O's and Breach's, and make a noise when it travels, unlike Kay/O's, and much louder than Breach's, which gives enemies a better opportunity to play antiflash.

Her heal seemed to be her saving grace, but once again, Sage's is just better now as a team heal, since it heals for full on a teammate, you get it back after 40 seconds, and you can instantly fight once you cast the heal, unlike Skye's where you have to have it out for a while, resulting in less opportunities than Sage to heal your teammates.

So her heal is worse than Sage, her dog is worse than Fade/Sova, her flash is worse than Kay/O, Breach, and even Phoenix now, and her ultimate is worse at taking sites than Fade's and giving info than Cypher's. Can't get worse right?

Bind and Breeze are going to be gone, which are her two best maps. On top of this, a nerf with Chamber will lead to a rise in Killjoy, especially since her ult is much harder to break now. A rise in Killjoy means more teams will want to have agents that can counter her, namely Kay/O with his supress, and the fact that his molly can still break the ult if placed correctly (60 damage max for 4 ticks = 240 dmg, 1x multiplier, KJ ult has only 200 hp) only adds to his benefits over Skye.

Skye did get changed in the new patch, but I would say it hurt her more than helped. Sure, you can buy heal+flash+light shield now on pistols, but her dog is still really good, and apart from pistols, I don't see how a change to the prices of Skye's heal and dog will change anything, if anything, it will only make gun rounds harder for Skye, since most people would rather have a dog on a gun round rather than a heal.

Skye's last hope at coming back literally relies on if the new map is a Skye map and I really hope Riot does something to fix this, I just wanted yalls thoughts on this and any proposed changes that I can put in my video. I also have another post I'm gonna make sometime later about why I expect agent compositions to get really stale and repetitive with the new changes. That's all, thanks for reading if you did read, have a great Christmas everybody.

#2
Qwertyy
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ok

#3
Gutssz
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yeah, u are right Chamber needs buff

#4
babysasuke
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Qwertyy [#2]

ok

yay would still drop 90 with skye

#5
ItsMeDio
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Wow, true

#6
maximumszn
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alright excited to see cuz skye is my favourite agent

#7
kaesra
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deserved for being aussie

#8
4rrowlol
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kaesra [#7]

deserved for being aussie

TS_ChedZ + WRONSKI fan summon

#9
capital_d_colon
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her kit is kinda an amalgamation of other champions kits, yet all the abilities are slightly worse.
They were trying to change the way kayo/skye were played, from the hybrid-duellist style to more of a supportive style.
That was mainly due to both of them outperforming duelists in most metrics.

Fade's kit sorta functions as a better skye.

  • prowler vs dog, prowler is just better.
  • Info gathering ability with the eye vs flashes.

Fade has a tether which is probably more useful than a heal.

The ults:

  • fade is much better for taking sites
  • skyes is better for revealing flanks but whats the point in that with the prevalence of chamber.
#10
4rrowlol
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babysasuke [#4]

yay would still drop 90 with skye

Yay would turn his monitor off so he cant flash himself and get 6 every round

#11
Mortadelo
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Her heal is way better than Sage's who's just been nerfed. Fade also been nerfed, give Skye time

#12
Dolphin
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It's kinda crazy considering that at one point skye was meta in almost every map and sometimes even considered overpowered by many pros. But without even receiving a real nerf, she slowly lost revelance do to changes in meta and now she is kinda useless

#13
babysasuke
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Mortadelo [#11]

Her heal is way better than Sage's who's just been nerfed. Fade also been nerfed, give Skye time

2 completely different classes and purposes shitadelo

#14
capital_d_colon
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Mortadelo [#11]

Her heal is way better than Sage's who's just been nerfed. Fade also been nerfed, give Skye time

disagree. you are far less restricted with a sage heal.

#15
4rrowlol
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capital_d_colon [#9]

her kit is kinda an amalgamation of other champions kits, yet all the abilities are slightly worse.
They were trying to change the way kayo/skye were played, from the hybrid-duellist style to more of a supportive style.
That was mainly due to both of them outperforming duelists in most metrics.

Fade's kit sorta functions as a better skye.

  • prowler vs dog, prowler is just better.
  • Info gathering ability with the eye vs flashes.

Fade has a tether which is probably more useful than a heal.

The ults:

  • fade is much better for taking sites
  • skyes is better for revealing flanks but whats the point in that with the prevalence of chamber.

Yea I feel like Skye is kinda like Phoenix now, trying too hard to do too many things, thus being able to not do anything as good as others. Kinda makes sense when you think about it since she was made as a mix of breach and sova.

Only issue is now she’s being outclassed at everything like Phoenix was.

#16
Dolphin
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4rrowlol [#15]

Yea I feel like Skye is kinda like Phoenix now, trying too hard to do too many things, thus being able to not do anything as good as others. Kinda makes sense when you think about it since she was made as a mix of breach and sova.

Only issue is now she’s being outclassed at everything like Phoenix was.

Funny considering how she was even considered a better Phoenix at the time

#17
4rrowlol
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Mortadelo [#11]

Her heal is way better than Sage's who's just been nerfed. Fade also been nerfed, give Skye time

I disagree, fades nerfs aren’t huge, it’s not like it’s a rework and it was mainly intended to let sova have some breathing room.

Also this is probably the worst argument to use “give it some time”, the whole point is that skye has been slowly dying due to power creep and changes to other agents opposed to being directly hard nerfed.

That being said I respect the opinion on sage but I think that sages heal is a lot better since it heals 100 and you can use it more often in better opportunities, you don’t have to be 100% safe to use it

#18
ry666
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didnt read but good for you

#19
Mortadelo
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babysasuke [#13]

2 completely different classes and purposes shitadelo

Skye directly compete's with fade as initiator and with sage as the only to agents that heal. If you don't agree say something else not that none sense. Ik you're butthurt about the other argument

#20
Mortadelo
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capital_d_colon [#14]

disagree. you are far less restricted with a sage heal.

It does depend on the situation. But I mean self heal is so nerfed on Sage that it's almost like not having it. So the difference Ig is what do you rather, heal more people or heal faster

#21
Mortadelo
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4rrowlol [#17]

I disagree, fades nerfs aren’t huge, it’s not like it’s a rework and it was mainly intended to let sova have some breathing room.

Also this is probably the worst argument to use “give it some time”, the whole point is that skye has been slowly dying due to power creep and changes to other agents opposed to being directly hard nerfed.

That being said I respect the opinion on sage but I think that sages heal is a lot better since it heals 100 and you can use it more often in better opportunities, you don’t have to be 100% safe to use it

I didn't say fade nerfs were huge, but they are there and definitely somehow affect her pick rates, even if it's just a little bit

And about the give it some time argument what I mean by that is that the meta it's a huge net, touching an agent not only affects that agent but all the rest, and since there's been a huge change, it's almost impossible to accurately predict the secondary effects on agents until it actually happens

#22
babysasuke
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Mortadelo [#19]

Skye directly compete's with fade as initiator and with sage as the only to agents that heal. If you don't agree say something else not that none sense. Ik you're butthurt about the other argument

Why are you comparing Skye and Sage heals. Its not like you could slot each agent into a comp 1 for 1. You would know this if youve ever played the game.

Fade is immensely more impactful than Skye as well in their current states.

Youre butthurt that youre always wrong, but for some reason you continue to just say whatever nonsense pops into your head and then get upset when you get called out for it.

Actual biggest 0head user on the site and its not even close. There are actual dedicated baiters with more valuable takes than you.

#23
Mortadelo
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babysasuke [#22]

Why are you comparing Skye and Sage heals. Its not like you could slot each agent into a comp 1 for 1. You would know this if youve ever played the game.

Fade is immensely more impactful than Skye as well in their current states.

Youre butthurt that youre always wrong, but for some reason you continue to just say whatever nonsense pops into your head and then get upset when you get called out for it.

Actual biggest 0head user on the site and its not even close. There are actual dedicated baiters with more valuable takes than you.

I'm comparing Skye to sage heal because is what the dude did in his post and same with Fade. Did you even read it? Dude idk what I have done to you but leave me alone

#24
babysasuke
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Mortadelo [#23]

I'm comparing Skye to sage heal because is what the dude did in his post and same with Fade. Did you even read it? Dude idk what I have done to you but leave me alone

dog barking

#25
Mortadelo
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babysasuke [#24]

dog barking

If I'm such a horrible user would you mind just leaving me alone and stop insulting me on every post for no reason?

#26
babysasuke
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Mortadelo [#25]

If I'm such a horrible user would you mind just leaving me alone and stop insulting me on every post for no reason?

Im holding out hope that one day you'll use all of this free time you have to form an actually informed opinion on something instead of stat dumping and just making shit up, and then baiting people that actually know what theyre talking about into stupid discussions that shouldnt have happened to begin with THEN just saying you were right at the end even though anyone with eyes and 1st grade reading comprehension knows that youre lost and have no idea what you're talking about

I believe in you

You CAN be a functioning human

#27
Mortadelo
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babysasuke [#26]

Im holding out hope that one day you'll use all of this free time you have to form an actually informed opinion on something instead of stat dumping and just making shit up, and then baiting people that actually know what theyre talking about into stupid discussions that shouldnt have happened to begin with THEN just saying you were right at the end even though anyone with eyes and 1st grade reading comprehension knows that youre lost and have no idea what you're talking about

I believe in you

You CAN be a functioning human

I've tried to make peace, but I see you're gonna keep being a jerk so whatever

#28
babysasuke
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Mortadelo [#27]

I've tried to make peace, but I see you're gonna keep being a jerk so whatever

Ik you're butthurt about the other argument

L Peacemaking attempt but do you.

#29
Mortadelo
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babysasuke [#28]

Ik you're butthurt about the other argument

L Peacemaking attempt but do you.

Are you not? I literally compared 2 agents cause that's what the dude is doing on his thread and you come up from nowhere asking why I did that and insulting me for no reason

#30
babysasuke
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Mortadelo [#29]

Are you not? I literally compared 2 agents cause that's what the dude is doing on his thread and you come up from nowhere asking why I did that and insulting me for no reason

For someone who just wants to be left alone you seem to have a really hard time not responding 🤓

I said they were different roles, because they are, and Sage's heal is arguably better anyway. 100HP heal, free, longer range, 45s cooldown, AND can be used on herself.

Your assessment was wrong
Your comparison was stupid to begin with
You felt the need to say it without thinking (like you have for 10703 posts)
Then you got upset that you got called out for being a bullshitter

If youre so upset, stop responding to me. Every other 32IQ SHITMEA user figured that out, but here you are, unable to cope with your own shortcomings.

#31
Mortadelo
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babysasuke [#30]

For someone who just wants to be left alone you seem to have a really hard time not responding 🤓

I said they were different roles, because they are, and Sage's heal is arguably better anyway. 100HP heal, free, longer range, 45s cooldown, AND can be used on herself.

Your assessment was wrong
Your comparison was stupid to begin with
You felt the need to say it without thinking (like you have for 10703 posts)
Then you got upset that you got called out for being a bullshitter

If youre so upset, stop responding to me. Every other 32IQ SHITMEA user figured that out, but here you are, unable to cope with your own shortcomings.

Her heal seemed to be her saving grace, but once again, Sage's is just better now as a team heal, since it heals for full on a teammate, you get it back after 40 seconds, and you can instantly fight once you cast the heal, unlike Skye's where you have to have it out for a while, resulting in less opportunities than Sage to heal your teammates.

So her heal is worse than Sage, her dog is worse than Fade/Sova, her flash is worse than Kay/O, Breach, and even Phoenix now, and her ultimate is worse at taking sites than Fade's and giving info than Cypher's. Can't get worse right?

Okay then my comparison is wrong, go tell the dude and call him shit too

#32
babysasuke
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Mortadelo [#31]

Her heal seemed to be her saving grace, but once again, Sage's is just better now as a team heal, since it heals for full on a teammate, you get it back after 40 seconds, and you can instantly fight once you cast the heal, unlike Skye's where you have to have it out for a while, resulting in less opportunities than Sage to heal your teammates.

So her heal is worse than Sage, her dog is worse than Fade/Sova, her flash is worse than Kay/O, Breach, and even Phoenix now, and her ultimate is worse at taking sites than Fade's and giving info than Cypher's. Can't get worse right?

Okay then my comparison is wrong, go tell the dude and call him shit too

You truly dont see the difference between the original post and yours?💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀

#33
Mortadelo
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babysasuke [#32]

You truly dont see the difference between the original post and yours?💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀

Both are comparisons of the same agents and I'm arguing about their changes? Whatever

#34
BackoxyXD
-4
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Going to make a longer YT video explaining this all in detail once I get back to the states from India, but for now I'll post a simpler, compact version of why Patch 5.12 put the final nail in Skye's coffin and nobody seemed to notice.

Everyone’s already given their two cents on the major changes in this patch, how Chamber is now dead, Killjoy is set to make the comeback of a lifetime, and what Sage’s place will be in the future, but nobody has talked about Skye at all, which is kind of concerning because it almost seems like nobody even noticed she's pretty much a dead agent.

First of all, Skye's pickrate over the last few major tournaments, from Masters Berlin to the recent RBHG3 has fallen from 58% to 16%, despite there not being a significant nerf to her this whole time. The only map teams ever played Skye was Bind, and even in mid-high elo ranked (D3+), the only maps you would ever see Skye on is Bind and Breeze, with some Haven sprinkled there. The only time Skye was picked in RBHG3 outside of Bind was once on Pearl, courtesy of C9 getting humiliated by T2 EU team FOKUS and losing the series, so not a great track record.

This happened due to both a change in overall playstyle and an initiator power creep. As teams changed from the simple Sentinels-style 5 man site hits to more defaults and split pushes, utility became more important, the reason why double duelist died, and why Skye started to explode in popularity in the first place. But as executes got more and more complex, teams started to favor Kay/O and Breach over Skye for flashes, and the introduction of Fade pretty much killed the viability of Skye's information, as the Prowlers and Nightfall eclipsed the Dog and Seekers, and the information given by flashes has always been unreliable.

The one area where Skye's flashes were better than any other was pop-flashing through smokes and walls, but popflashing with Skye and Kay/O got hard nerfed with patch 5.07, lasting only 1 second. Kay/O doesn't really have a problem with this, since his long flash is still really good, and with the proper lineup you can make it work like a regular underhand from before, but Skye's long flash is slow, easy to dodge, difficult to coordinate compared to Kay/O's and Breach's, and make a noise when it travels, unlike Kay/O's, and much louder than Breach's, which gives enemies a better opportunity to play antiflash.

Her heal seemed to be her saving grace, but once again, Sage's is just better now as a team heal, since it heals for full on a teammate, you get it back after 40 seconds, and you can instantly fight once you cast the heal, unlike Skye's where you have to have it out for a while, resulting in less opportunities than Sage to heal your teammates.

So her heal is worse than Sage, her dog is worse than Fade/Sova, her flash is worse than Kay/O, Breach, and even Phoenix now, and her ultimate is worse at taking sites than Fade's and giving info than Cypher's. Can't get worse right?

Bind and Breeze are going to be gone, which are her two best maps. On top of this, a nerf with Chamber will lead to a rise in Killjoy, especially since her ult is much harder to break now. A rise in Killjoy means more teams will want to have agents that can counter her, namely Kay/O with his supress, and the fact that his molly can still break the ult if placed correctly (60 damage max for 4 ticks = 240 dmg, 1x multiplier, KJ ult has only 200 hp) only adds to his benefits over Skye.

Skye did get changed in the new patch, but I would say it hurt her more than helped. Sure, you can buy heal+flash+light shield now on pistols, but her dog is still really good, and apart from pistols, I don't see how a change to the prices of Skye's heal and dog will change anything, if anything, it will only make gun rounds harder for Skye, since most people would rather have a dog on a gun round rather than a heal.

Skye's last hope at coming back literally relies on if the new map is a Skye map and I really hope Riot does something to fix this, I just wanted yalls thoughts on this and any proposed changes that I can put in my video. I also have another post I'm gonna make sometime later about why I expect agent compositions to get really stale and repetitive with the new changes. That's all, thanks for reading if you did read, have a great Christmas everybody.

#35
babysasuke
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Mortadelo [#33]

Both are comparisons of the same agents and I'm arguing about their changes? Whatever

dog barking

#36
blazennn
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Mortadelo [#20]

It does depend on the situation. But I mean self heal is so nerfed on Sage that it's almost like not having it. So the difference Ig is what do you rather, heal more people or heal faster

it takes 1 second for someone to heal with sage
Skye needs to hold it out, let the team heal and hope they’re all in the same spot
Sage heal clears

#37
blazennn
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Mortadelo [#21]

I didn't say fade nerfs were huge, but they are there and definitely somehow affect her pick rates, even if it's just a little bit

And about the give it some time argument what I mean by that is that the meta it's a huge net, touching an agent not only affects that agent but all the rest, and since there's been a huge change, it's almost impossible to accurately predict the secondary effects on agents until it actually happens

I mean it’s pretty easy to see based off of nerfs/buffs who will be meta, just read patch notes? The state Valorant is in right now is nice without Chamber. Fixed rank and we’re looking good

#38
blazennn
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Dolphin [#12]

It's kinda crazy considering that at one point skye was meta in almost every map and sometimes even considered overpowered by many pros. But without even receiving a real nerf, she slowly lost revelance do to changes in meta and now she is kinda useless

she was nerfed? this shows how little you read patch notes

#39
Mortadelo
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blazennn [#37]

I mean it’s pretty easy to see based off of nerfs/buffs who will be meta, just read patch notes? The state Valorant is in right now is nice without Chamber. Fixed rank and we’re looking good

You can tell which agents are gonna be stronger, what I'm saying is every nerf has secondary effects. For example the chamber nerf tell us chamber is not gonna be used but do you know if teams are gonna replace him with Cypher? Killjoy? Jett? Another duelist? We can't know what's best until we see yk

#40
LightningLeaf
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thing is if not a pop flash her flash takes too long

#41
my_fav_team_is_M3C
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Based takes, based user

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