Where do yall rank talon with pati?

#24

archetype

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I do not believe it

I'm not telling you that they're good I'm telling you that they can hold their own. Scrim results don't mean much, however if a team is doing well in scrims generally speaking it means they have some level of skill. And it definitely means that they weren't overperforming up until then.

You only believe they are overperforming because they did not get results the two tournaments after. I'm saying that performance wise they are still performing to a similar level. And the evidence I have is that they performed well in the toughest group, and had good scrim results against the other top teams. So it was not an overperformance in M1.

As for top 8 at Sao Paulo it is literally IMPOSSIBLE to judge because half the teams at the tournament are completely new. 0 idea how they will play.

And it perfectly illustrates the flaw in your thinking. You only look at results. You don't look at actual gameplay.

#25

Mortadelo

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I'm not telling you that they're good I'm telling you that they can hold their own. Scrim results don't mean much, however if a team is doing well in scrims generally speaking it means they have some level of skill. And it definitely means that they weren't overperforming up until then.

I don't think we're understanding each other here, idk how you define over performing but there is a big difference between over performing and "having some level of skill". Dude they are a great team but they are not as good as they showed to be that masters, there's literally no point to support that statement, but not being a top 4 in the world us not something to be ashamed of lmao

#26

archetype

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How were they then overperforming then when their performance literally has not changed lol??? When they have similar performances against similar/higher calibre teams?
Imo, that means they have always been playing at that level, and therefore it is not an overperformance.

Don't forget that they literally only lost to LOUD at Champs. The same team that did not drop a map in playoffs until GF.

#28

Mortadelo

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Losing to NTH looks the same to you? Yeah sure they only lost to LOUD who came from losing to OPTC, yeah but let's be honest they struggled against BOOM who was clearly a bottom 3 team in the tournament and heir performance against LOUD was not good at all, they didn't give them much trouble unless for a couple LAZ plays. LOUD victories over teams like Leviatan seemed a lot more of a struggle. Dude you can think Zeta was a top 4 team in this Champs if that's what you want to believe but in my opinion they weren't better than any playoff team which to me proves an overperform last masters

#29

archetype

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Losing to NTH looks the same to you?

Literally leaving out the fact that ZETA coach and players said they were tired during GF, not to mention that one bad tournament means nothing. OpTic bombed out of Champs 2021, lmao.

Yeah sure they only lost to LOUD who came from losing to OPTC, yeah but let's be honest they struggled against BOOM who was clearly a bottom 3 team in the tournament

You act like 1: OPTC aren't a good team, and 2: BOOM didn't take OPTC to 3 maps. Sure, BOOM were bad but so what? Teams struggle against weak teams because no team at Champs was actually weak. DRX struggled against FURIA too lol.

heir performance against LOUD was not good at all

ZETA played well, LOUD just played better. I don't think it was ZETA playing that badly. And don't forget ZETA was playing with TENN who had like no practice and was coming off an eye injury.

Dude you can think Zeta was a top 4 team in this Champs if that's what you want to believe

Literally nobody said this. You are making stuff up. I'm saying they weren't overperforming but you're acting as if I think ZETA is top 4 in the world. Of course they're not, but that doesn't mean their M1 run was an overperformance. Would you have said that ENVY overperformed at M3 because they got grouped at Champs 2021? Lmao?
If you think that a justification for overperformance was not having the same results/similar results every tournament then every team outside of OPTC just overperformed.

#31

Mortadelo

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Literally leaving out the fact that ZETA coach and players said they were tired during GF, not to mention that one bad tournament means nothing. OpTic bombed out of Champs 2021, lmao.

That's the thing tho you can't call it a bad tournament when you have only had 1 good one

"Dude you can think Zeta was a top 4 team in this Champs if that's what you want to believe"

Literally nobody said this. You are making stuff up. I'm saying they weren't overperforming but you're acting as if I think ZETA is top 4 in the world. Of course they're not, but that doesn't mean their M1 run was an overperformance.

Again I don't think you understand my point at all, I can't explain it another way. If a team places higher than they should (You just recognized they are not top 4 like they placed) then its a fucking over perform that's literally all I'm saying dude

#32

archetype

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That's the thing tho you can't call it a bad tournament when you have only had 1 good one

this ZETA has played exactly 2 international tournaments, got 3rd at one, and then grouped at the other.

But they got grouped only because they lost to the eventual winners twice—the same team that didn't drop a map in playoffs, and only 1 in Grands. So that's an asterisk.

Again I don't think you understand my point at all, I can't explain it another way. If a team places higher than they should (You just recognized they are not top 4 like they placed) then its a fucking over perform that's literally all I'm saying dude

My point is ZETA did not place higher than they should though? They beat PRX, DRX, and TL. They made a convincing Lower Bracket run, even when they lost to G2 it was evident that ZETA were the better team, just extremely fatigued because they had played without any rest due to bad scheduling.

Would you agree that PRX were the 4th best team at Masters 1? That DRX were the 5th-6th best? That LOUD were 2nd best? That OpTic was the best? Then it is very clear that ZETA was the 3rd best team at the event. Simple as.

The only international team ZETA has lost to since M1 was fucking LOUD. That's it. They had no chance to play against other teams.

Currently, ZETA are not Top 4 in the world. That's obvious. But back during M1? Yes, they were. They deserved it. They played like a Top 4 team and got 3rd place deservedly. They still play the same way they did back at M1, the only difference I can see can easily be explained due to the lack of practice they had with TENN. They just don't have the results.
Ergo, I do not think they overperformed at all. I think their level of play at Champs shows that.

also mfw u say TL is better than ZETA even tho ZETA literally beat TL lol

#33

nutab1e

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unstoppable force meets immovable object, thank you for doing the lord's work

#34

archetype

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just baffles me how one can think ZETA overperformed lol. They deserved the 3rd place at Reykjavik and nothing says they've gotten worse since then. There's a possibility, but nothing concrete lol. As far as it stands, ZETA did not overperform and what's more, within the VPL (as this thread was originally about), ZETA are still good because they literally have not lost to PRX, and are 1-1 with DRX. I believe they are 3rd best in the VPL, and there is a low probability of them losing to TALON, especially when even Northeption didn't.

#50

Mortadelo

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Lmao you keep acting like if saying Zeta got worse since they played 6 months ago is something crazy and for some reason when if you look at this thread absolutely anybody places them over DRX or PRX who are definitely not top 1 and 2 in the world. All I'm saying is they did fucking great on a tournament and had a fucking good day, that does not mean they didn't deserve it

#35

Mortadelo

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Overperforming does not mean you didn't deserve what you got, people keeps saying this every team deserves the spot they get that's how it works they earn it. Overperforming means that they have a better tournament that they usually do, hit shots that they don't usually hit, get in the mood yk. Do they deserve the placement? ofc they do, they earned it. It's what they did something you could expect them to repeat consistently? No it is not. Which means they had a tournament were they performed better than they usually do (overperform)

#37

archetype

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It's what they did something you could expect them to repeat consistently? No it is not. Which means they had a tournament were they performed better than they usually do (overperform)

see below:

If you think that a justification for overperformance was not having the same results/similar results every tournament then every team outside of OPTC just overperformed.

lmao. I guess up until Champs you thought LOUD overperformed at M1 because they got grouped at M2.
Except from what I remember you never said that. So what gives? Where's the consistency in your logic? Did you say ENVY overperformed at M3 when they got grouped at Champs 2021?
So where's the logical consistency?
Going off of what you said today, it seems that ZETA overperformed.
But if ZETA do well for more events, it'll turn out that maybe ZETA didn't overperform, you just don't know how to judge teams outside of results and recency bias.
But going off what you said before, it seems that ZETA didn't overperform.

Don't forget that the basis of this argument stems from you thinking ZETA might not actually be a top 3 team in the VPL (Valorant Pacific League). Don't forget that ZETA took wins off the clear Top 2 in that league as well (PRX & DRX)

Perhaps you mean to say ZETA fell off. Which is something I'm more open to agreeing with.

NV do not qualify to Iceland. They get 2nd at Berlin. They get grouped at Champs.

ZETA do not qualify to Copenhagen. They get 3rd at Reykajvik. They get grouped at Champs.

But I'm sure you didn't say NV overperformed at Berlin. So why are you saying it for ZETA?

#38

Mortadelo

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But if ZETA do well for more events, it'll turn out that maybe ZETA didn't overperform, you just don't know how to judge teams outside of results and recency bias.

Yes, what is more correct to you, give. a team the title of being good after 1 tournament and then expecting them to do well on the next one, or waiting until they perform well again to give them that title? Literally the opposite of recency bias

lmao. I guess up until Champs you thought LOUD overperformed at M1 because they got grouped at M2.
Except from what I remember you never said that. So what gives? Where's the consistency in your logic? Did you say ENVY overperformed at M3 when they got grouped at Champs 2021?

Sure did, I do not think a team is the best in the world after 1 tournament they are the ones to have to prove that they are not a fluke throughout consistency , we're not the ones who have to prove that they are not that good, that's not how competition works. Could they be proof me wrong like the others 2 did? Yeah, have they yet? No, so until they proof otherwise they underperformed in my opinion, but it's clear that you don't agree so let's just drop it and agree to disagree

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#39

yaiima0

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dont bother arguing, he wont listen to what you have to say anyways

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