well this aged poorly
| Flag: | United States |
| Registered: | February 4, 2023 |
| Last post: | June 3, 2024 at 12:33 AM |
| Posts: | 786 |
no one thought they were the worst team
from the couple of interviews I have read about the whole role changes inside SEN it seems like sykko was actually really skeptical about it and did not want to do it at first. because he had the same thought as pretty much everyone else has 'oh pANcada and sacy world champ on smoke/initiator why take him off smokes/initiator???'
article: https://dotesports.com/valorant/news/sentinels-valorant-coach-explains-why-he-changed-his-mind-on-tremendous-role-changes
"Sentinels needed a spark heading into the VCT Americas 2023, and they fittingly got one via an audacious suggestion from team analyst DrewSpark. ... Sentinels head coach Don “Syyko” Muir admitted it took some convincing before it was implemented."
"We noticed [pANcada’s] ability to play on an island and be a really impactful lurker was just phenomenal, and it was being wasted on the controller role. Controllers last year were a bit more lurky in the Chamber meta, but now that sentinels are back in play, they fill that primary lurk spot. So with pANcada’s skill in the role, combined with the fact that he doesn’t have to comm as much when he’s on his own, it seemed like a no-brainer for us.”
“The Sacy-to-smokes [idea] was a DrewSpark proposition that at first I shot down. I thought ‘no we can’t do that, he’s an initiator player.’ But the more work he put in, and the more evidence he put in front of me, we agreed to try it out and it looked great.”
I think this roster has real potential to do some BIG things!! like make a mark on history type BIG . . . their sheer greatness at the skill of throwing will never be forgotten until the end of time!!! 😔🔥🔥❗❗❗
the only player worth like any mention i could even somewhat realistically see switching to cs2 is scream. because the way this guy plays val and IGL's KC (into oblivion with how bad his calls are) it just seems like he wants to be playing cs in valorant. like that is his ideal world or something
riku was already the sub. he is just going to stay as the sub unless they decide to do something real wacky
keenc might be one of the best players in the whole of gc right now. they look like a monster playing jett
I mean even if you lose 3 games against the maybe 3 best teams in league (furia might be up there but I would love to see more from them to finalize my rating of them, but even still). It is fine honestly. They just need to be top 6 to make playoffs, whether they will be able to make it to Tokyo or not is a different story however.
It all depends on how they look in those matches against those teams that will give some hope of if they can actually compete for a spot for Tokyo.
It is just harder to igl from the sentinel role as you mentioned, but apparently their reason was that they decided to swap pANcada first then move dephh and sacy to fill the gaps. And zekken is a flex player, that has always been his role. So honestly I don't really think it matters what agent you put him on zekken is going to be able to perform well.
And we just don't yet know what role they plan on playing for dephh. because last week it seemed like he was going to be an initiator player now from ascent and fracture (which would make sense since that is the gap that sacy and pANcada moving roles would leave). But he has also played both astra on split (very strong agent on that map, and one of his most played agents) and then today he only played harbor.
But honestly, I don't think it super matters if he is also a 'flex' because I think his game sense is high enough to know how to use util decently given some practice.
because you don't understand why they decided to switch up the roles!!! it was too allow pANcada to get even more activated as a lurker and site anchor as sentinel then he was able to as smokes. He was a world champ on smokes in the chamber meta. The way he played smokes in chamber meta was this very heavy lurking flanks catch timings and solo site anchor with his util.
They just haven't used him too the level one would hope on that new role yet to show off why they "think" the change was good. It makes sense in theory. We just haven't seen it in actuality very much thus far (just a few flashes here and there)
I think its absolutely delusional of you to go "oh its not tenz fault he played bad one game, its dephh's fault since he has played consistently bad". Your take make sense in a vacuum if just go more kill = more win and dephh doesn't do that so he is the problem and tenz does that more, but he had an off game so its fine for him...
But unfortunately, thats not how it works. I do think it is absolutely off the walls crazy for people to go "__ x player did not do well, the team should drop them for x ___ instead and they would be better" or the separate " x team is screwed the season is done" ---- but people did the same fucking thing for zekken when he did not perform well in his ONE match at lock//in against fnatic.
VLR DONT OVERREACT FROM ONE MATCH STATS WITHOUT CONTEXT CHALLENGE?? IMPOSSIBLE!!!! 1000% DIFFICUTLY!!! NEVER COMPLETED is real
I am a SEN fan, really big fan of zekken especially. I think its just not facing reality if you try to say tenz did not underperform greatly from what he is capable of this game, and it hurt SEN badly. The way the roles are distributed it is not really dephh's job to get kills (does this excuse his subpar aim that can hurt the team if he can't win crucial aim duels when he does encounter them? no.) however dephh is not a liability as an igl, to say he is one, is just simply a bit absurd. I could see the front of his aim is a liability because I agree with that.
But his calls are not the biggest problem. He gets all the blame when they lose (even when its unfounded) and no praise when he makes good calls. Like they made some great adjustments and calls and that stuff just flies under the radar because "oh they lost, must of igl bott frags fault"
But tenz in this game just underperformed, his role is to go in and kill. He is set up with utility to get favorable duels and he was just consistently not capitalizing it seemed. The game plan was for sure lacking a bit on the side of SEN, that is the fault of the dephh and the coaches, especially the lotus ct and icebox attack the ideas just seemed to be not all there.
But even when the game plan is flawed, tenz still has his job in that plan and he was just going in and dying constantly. As well as the fact that once he pushed up and gained some space, he would try and reach for some more against such a strong team like NRG where stuff like that won't work.
TL:DR_ Delesional to think its at least some what tenz's fault for this loss when he is not doing his job and just losing the duels that he is being set up to win. It's also crazy to then try to pivot the blame from not tenz's fault to instead its dephh's fault, because dephh is more consistently fragging worse. Even though dephh is doing a fine job calling and is not like a massive liability to the team like scream IGL for KC. It's not tenz total fault, not dephh/coaching staff game plan fault for the loss. Its probably a mixture of NRG is just really good, and both
actual 26-0 potential for FNATIC
can't wait to see what ClownmineCorp has in store for us to witness this time... will they have figured out a single thing about the game by the time this match is played? or will they keep getting worse each map they play?
I am looking at it from his perspective the best I can, with the limited info I have, and that's why I am not exactly "mad" per say. I think the players are more so annoyed because of how far along in the process it was apparently with most of the members tweeting out the like contract signing gif that literally every val player does when they get signed. It's obviously his money and he can do what he wants and investing in a esports org (especially right now) is not very profitable. So if he doesn't want to get in, that's fine. But people are annoyed because he was showing that he was going to get in and then just didn't
The other thing to consider is that TTR has had this type of situation happen before with EG showing interest in add3r for an extended period of time, forcing the team in this state of limbo not knowing if they were going to have a player or not because of EG doing this back and forth of they were going to sign or were they not going to sign add3r. So this adds even more to the players being annoyed by having a contract waved in front of their face and then just pulled back, because of reasons out of their control.
they are mad at him for leading a team of players making $0 on for a few weeks when they could have been looking for other offers, and by doing so it makes every other org stop looking at TTR because those orgs assume it would just be a waste of time to look at the team if they are going to get signed by someone else. which I think is totally fair.
-> Prospective orgs stop being prospective and the players have more time where they are not getting paid or even looking for those possible prospective orgs.
But also his reason for not being able to sign them seems fair, with the very limited info of course... so grain of salt (the only thing I have heard about this is legit this one thread)
take what you will but looking at some tweets from the members of the teams you could probably infer that they are IN FACT, not signed.
https://twitter.com/WedidOfficial/status/1640737414070009856 . https://twitter.com/Governor_Val/status/1640577336490827776 . https://twitter.com/Add3rTV/status/1640582426417086464 . https://twitter.com/Add3rTV/status/1642928878359396352
The team's April Fool's joke was legit that they had gotten signed by xqc after all the talk about him picking them up
https://twitter.com/turtletroopsval/status/1642030279391846400
Safe to assume the Troop is still looking for someone to sign them --- https://twitter.com/WedidOfficial/status/1643454793686368257 (wedid tweeted this today so...)
#1 initiator in challengers on twitter and in game... guy can't take an L
its sondering time
good for you for taking the leap and asking her out, happy for you!
I think their problem seems to be their attack side. I would have to rewatch the vods to totally give a full take, but from what I can remember I know against c9 ran no a 0 duelist comp on Pearl with 2 initiators and they just could not take space to get on site and then they ran sova on fracture which is a very unorthodox pick, so maybe they were just trying things out in the first week...
But they frequently seem to just send BcJ across the map to lurk which I think is a fine play to do sometimes to catch the enemy offguard and apply that sort of pressure, but they do it way too often and he is way to far. It's almost as if he is being used as a turret to hold flanks and pushes instead of taking his own pushes to catch a pick on rotates or even show the threat of such a thing. So if he doesn't encounter someone trying to flank the people on site just are fighting a 4v5 with more angles to clear and harder to trade fights.
And when he does get to site it usually much later and he fighting a losing battle or he is trying to rescue his last surviving teammate from an corner but the enemies have a guess he is probably coming from a late flank or something and are just waiting for him holding the angle he peaks.
I think BcJ is a very good player and you can see it when he is on defense and also from his time on XSET, just I think he is being misused to do these long passive lurks when pro play is all about being proactive and taking space and gaining info. And they are using him in a way that doesn't really do any of that while keeping him on smokes so he can just throw his smokes across the map.
SEN put pANcada on sentinel just so he could do this exact lurk type thing while getting the most out of his agent kit, so maybe EG might want to do something similar with BcJ?? but I am no coach, I don't think its potter's fault they just need to change like one or two things and will be good. They have pretty solid players just aren't using them to their best potential imo
TL:DR- Stop sending BcJ on these passive lurks its not working :) (but its not his fault dont hate on one of the goats)
well that mostly comes down to personal playstyle and the team system and what they want each player on their agent to do rather than the fact that the game itself and the roles are bad.
i would say more so you find what playstyle you have and then figure out what type of agent/role best suits that style. pANcada was on controller in the last meta because that was the lurking role, but in this meta sentinel is the lurker so he has now transitioned over because that role better suits his style of hard lurking and tying to catch a flank and little timing.
No the roles make sense still because the agents in those roles are better built to fit a certain playstyle of doing certain thing. Obviously some characters have some pieces of util that don't obey these rules, but this kind of how each role is built to work. (At least this is how I think about it)
____
Duelist is the space taker- typically has some movement or a heal, very good for attack and taking space but struggles to get info or deny info
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Initiator is the space creator (there is both flash and ping, so think skye vs sova and how their abilities are so different) - flash initiator typically will use flashes to make it easier to take space for the duelist and the rest of the team to entry/clear and area. The ping initiator has util that just gives info on where the enemies are and uses that to take space.
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Controller is the space/info denier - uses smokes to deny sightlines and info, can deny of all info but can't really gain any info by themselves
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Sentinel is the space holder (?) - has util that will allow for denial of space of an area, or if the enemy team does want to take that space they will have to give away the info that they are there (think kj alarm bot) typically very good for defense, but has the weakness of not being able to take space very well.
The main reason for such a big gap is that there was just a really long off season between champions (where ayrin got his last win) and the start of the next season with lock//in.
It's not like all these players just could not win a single series for 6+ months straight. GE have only played 2 matches so far since the last time vct was going on.
thank you for the translation, very cool to hear their thoughts
I think the role changes are strange to look at right now just because of how good those two players were at there respective roles of pANcada on smokes and sacy on initiator and thats why people are reacting in the way they are right now.
I think the changes could actually be good for the team and the players in the long run. Because it lets pANcada do more of his own thing and hard lurk and I think sacy is more than a good enough of a player to pick up main smokes. My guess as to why the team made the changes is that maybe dephh feels more comfortable as IGL on initiator (a much more active role that gives more info) instead of the sentinel/lurking smokes role that he was playing before.
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Overall I think it could be a pretty good change for the team just they will need more time to iron out the mistakes and let the players feel more comfortable on their roles before we can really get a full review on the decision.
dephh, the world's greatest tactician lured them into the mental warfare just so they would fear his power and overwhelming strength so he could frag out and win on Ascent. It was all a setup for later, all these haters calling him a "fraud" and saying SEN should cut dephh could just simply not grasp this level of strategic mind games.
When Sun Tzu was writing "The Art of War" he consulted dephh in order to make sure that what he was writing down were the best tactics possible, and even then dephh scoffed at the teachings for how simplistic they were in comparison to his strategic mind that came up with the plan of not buying with max money on a 12-11 scoreline... what a genius!!!
it has happened multiple times to people, boaster is pretty notable for doing in a few high pressure situations to the point where Derke apparently checks to make sure boaster has bought
guess its just a British IGL thing...
Even as someone who watched carpe in owl and knew that he had god tier mechanics (there are tales of him doing sub 100 reaction time shit on human benchmark type insane levels of mechanics), it was more just uncertainty surrounding the pickup.
They decided to pick up a player who has no real experience in the game that may or may not pan out, when you have other options available to you that are like proven to be able to close to that level I would think.
It was just a really big risk from T1 to sign him because his potential is higher but at the same time he could bust through the floor and mess us their season if he doesn't turn out to be the player you expect. But it's seeming to work out pretty well for them as he has clearly improved to becoming a player that can play at that level rather than just a liability.
the concept 6 one in the comments is actually really sick
Thank you!
Any smart math people can you figure out if M80 even need to play (so anything other than the minimum 1 point) to finish top 8 or are they already locked in to make it to Challengers Playoffs at the end of the season? Would be really cool to see. (im too lazy to do the numbers my self)
Its top 8 go to the challenger playoffs tourney and then the top 2 from that (so who ever makes it to the finals) goes to the Ascension tournament to play for a spot in franchising against the other regions.
So do M80 need anything other than dead last to finish top 8 in overall points?
Hades is another phenomenal rougelike game like ror2, would highly recommend
this clip is so goated...
encapsulates what KC appear to be doing wrong with just all the seemingly basic things, just making loads of unforced errors all over the place it feels
I know M80 was already a favorite for being one of the two teams that make it to Ascension from NA, but does getting the +10 from here along with the +20 points from Split 1 auto qualify them for the end of season playoff to go to Ascension already?
"Do they even need to play Split 2 at all because of the points they have already?" is what I'm asking, any smart math people this would be cool to know.
KC got challenged more than they did in the BBL match and they showed even more of the cracks that were apparent from both LOCK//IN and the BBL game. It was both TH playing just alright (nothing spectacular), but mostly KC playing really really bad.
Put simply KC started to hard troll the moment the game became slightly tough.
Here is my totally wild tinfoil hat crackpipe smoking theory. If SEN do change something (I really don't think they should make a change just because of time to practice and haven't really tested the squad in any real way, unless scrims are just going poorly but I have heard they are going well)
https://twitter.com/Sentinels/status/1628149937757204483 at the end of this clip dephh says "one day I think he (referring to zekken) could be an IGL himself" and a good portion of the clip is just the members of SEN talking about zekken's good ideas and decision making, so with this and the pANcada spamming sentinel agents in ranked theory in mind... here is the wildness SEN could do (not that they should)
zekken- flex & IGL
sacy- initiator & midrounder/second IGL (which he apparently already is and was on LOUD)
pANcada- sentinel
marved- smokes
tenz- duelist
dephh- benched
Realistically this lineup makes very little sense because of zekken has like no tier 1 IGL experience (to my knowledge at least) and also just the lack of time they would have to practice because of they just signed marved to the team and just overall it would make less about as much sense as this lineup to make a switch after the amount of gameplay we have seen from this current SEN lineup. I don't think they should make this change but its my crazed thought that I want to write down.
Because stuff like this does change the way a map is played even in just little ways. I don't think they want to fully rework a map to change the way a map is played. But stuff like making a door wider or moving a wall slightly changes sightlines/angle you can hold and can make it harder to hold or push from for one team.
what is the guy saying wrong? hes saying it would be concerning if franchised was getting more hype than challegers, but hes not saying that it is getting more hype... or am I going crazy here???
its wild you can be both lowkey racist and and stupid by some how say asian americans when referring to canadians.
maybe the best flex player in the world last year and hes not good... that makes total sense.
yeah they would have to change up their comps and play style too much. zekken might be able to fill tenz's spot as duelist, but no one can fill zekken's spot as flex with the same strength and agent pool.
dephh is sentinel/lurking smokes, pANcada - smokes (if we take that silly ranked theory, he could also be sentinel), sacy - initiator, marved -smokes
With the current meta, I think not having tenz would be pretty detrimental for the structure of the team comp. (also marved has said he doesn't even want to play and that's why he wasn't on a team until being SEN's sixth, unless that has changed without him saying anything)
its a stadium for 150~ people apparently, the crowd is never going to be great
bro doesn't realize every na gc player is radiant
marved himself has said he wants to take a break from playing... he would not just sign to a team with a clear starting five at this point in time especially with how good he is. He is most likely just going to be a signed streamer there because teams are required to have a sixth man, and for SEN having both a big streamer and a very competent player to sub IF needed is a great option. That's why they had Sick and now with what is going on there, they are just using marved in the exact same way.
Also the theory about pancada switching to sentinel because of ranked games is so absurdly silly.
don't get me wrong I think he's a really good player, but there is a difference between the flex role and playing different smokes agents.
Flex role you play a bunch of different roles like initiator, smokes, duelist, sentinel... tuyz was just playing smokes (brim, harbor, astra, omen)
tuyz was playing smokes the entire tourney, I would not consider him to be a flex player by any means (at least in that LOUD system)
don't hate on runi and jakee. they got signed because of the wacky circumstances of the org just being very not good... the two of them aren't frauds, your expectation of this team should be low (maybe 0-6 start to season looking at schedule) just because c9 fucked up
this tweet sums it up pretty perfectly: https://twitter.com/seangares/status/1636045420781768704
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