SEN fans, answer this

#1

Rey55

For split 2 and champs, would you keep the roster as it is with proven synergy or would you swap out sacy for a wonderkid like wo0t( ex. OXG verno, mada in NA) who can guy diff anyone consistently and win you unwinnable rounds?

If you ask me, I will choose the later. Because, I feel like TenZ and Zekken are the only frontliners on this team. If they get shutdown SEN just loses. That's why they lose so many ecos. If zekken or tenz gets one digged on the entries SEN round just falls apart like a house of cards. Good gameplans, chemistry, good fundies etc are all great but they are teachable traits and 'guy diffing' the opponents can give you that extra edge to win scrappy rounds and maps. Thoughts?

[ N.B. please, stop writing essays arguing they don't need 'sweeping changes'. I never said they need changes. Their core is almost perfect, they just need one more super reliable player in terms of shooting and decision making. 1 change outside of their core of zekken, johnqt,tenz, zellsis wouldn't kill their identity ]

#2

Cookierookie577

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keep the team, and if they flop the next events change the roster

#3

Coures

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this sen roster is INSANELY good yeah they had a bad split 1 but they still won masters Madrid and accomplished what 90% of teams could only dream of

they played fundamentally good valorant and digressed a bit while everyone else got better, they just have to bounceback and play better next time
this roster is proven to work and they're certainly not getting "guy diffed" so unless they lose to bilibili or smth they should keep the roster

#5

Rey55

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Won masters off of TenZ and zekken playing insanely good and johnqt putting up numbers as an IGL. That's not replicable anymore when a lot of other teams have caught upto them. It's always better to stay ahead of the curve.

#6

Coures

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it was not just zekken tenz and johnqt fragging out, they were ahead of pretty much everyone in the meta
the stats reflect how good they were as a team, because if all 5 players are putting up good numbers (zellsis and sacy were playing phenomenal as well), it's because they figured out the game better than others

#7

Rey55

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It was mostly tenz and zekken. The NRG game, the regional final against LOUD, madrid games. Yes teamwise, gameplay wise they were good. That's what i said too. But now that loads of teams have caught upto them and overtaken them in those regards they can't play the catchup game again with new strats only. They need at least one more guy that can steal away rounds.

#8

Flumplestiltski

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LOL what? Zellsis and Sacy have both made huge clutches and had huge maps throughout Kickoff, Madrid, and split 1. They, by literal definition, stole so many rounds that SEN should not have won

#11

Rey55

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clutches are not consistent ways to win games. I understand that those might get you hyped as a fan but I can objectively say this because I am neither a SEN fan nor sacy fan. Besides, you should expect clutches from players that stay alive late round. Players like verno or v1c etc would do the same if they were on SEN.

#34

yukky

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objectively

🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓

#48

albertsmh

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but that's what you mean when you say "guy diffing", it just simply means clutches and be a shield for the team

#58

Rey55

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I was saying this exactly because SEN is a good roster but has potential to be unbeatable, juggernaut type of great with just ONE change. I never said they need a roster overhaul, they have an almost perfect and balanced roster.
People here are just misunderstanding me. It may be hard for vlr and reddit nerds but it's not that hard for coaches to find the weak link who see these players everyday and see them comm and make micro-decisions.

#61

Coures

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bro sen were shit this split and it wasn't because of one small reason
there are some BIG issues with sen currently but making roster changes or doing whatever ain't gonna change shit
the roster's good, give them a break because they've played more rounds of val than anyone else in the world this year, and give them time to figure whatever their problem is out because if any team can bounce back it's these guys

#62

Rey55

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they lost some close games where sacy was straight ass. against EG sunset he singlehandedly threw so many rounds. they deffo woul have made playoffs with a better player. You can't play 4v5 most rounds, that's a recipe for Ls.
Them winning madrid just proves how good the rest of the 3 guys are and they deserve better. Aight i'm out. I can't change yalls mind it seems, you guys are hellbent to be nice to sacy just bc he WON and would rather ignore the massive flaws he has and how he's pulling the team down.

#63

Coures

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oh so this whole thread is just "sacy bad"

#65

Rey55

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read the first 2 lines and should be pretty obvious. Idk why people try to argue against it when it's the correct observation. Whether you are in favor of the change or not is a different matter

#4

Rey55

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Next event meaning split 2?

#9

Waking_W

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Bro have you even seen the madrid matches, everyone on sen was guy diffing everyone, zellsis tenz zekken johnqt all were winning their clutches and getting multikills, and sacy is the man who plays better in clutches

#10

cobalt21312

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either baiting or dumb if you think sen should change their roster

#13

Rey55

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I am being 100p realistic. If you don't think guys like verno, nismo, v1c etc wouldn't make this team instantly better you are just too attached to the current players.

#14

cobalt21312

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"If you don't think guys like verno, nismo, v1c etc wouldn't make this team instantly better you are just too attached to the current players. "

ok so its bait

#16

Rey55

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Do you watch NA tier 2? If not, watch them play first then talk. With any of those guys instead of zellsis/sacy SEN will become a true juggernaut, on per with Team heretics and that's not even a stretch.

#17

cobalt21312

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sens in a slump right now but kicking a player or two is braindead. i would be able to see a argument like this next year if sen miss out on champs but saying this right after they won madrid is crazy. they may be better but theres no reason to ruin team chemistry right now

#19

Rey55

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If you are an org like SEN, you gotta stay ahead of the curve. Their chemistry is ruined, that's the point. If they gotta build it back they might as well do it with a better player. Look at G2 icy, even though icy isn't like a game changer he still made G2 play a lot better. SEN was getting mad impressions on their madrid posts, them being mid and irrelevant costs Rob Moore a lot.

Kaplan has to know better. If they can't make champs or win it with insane guys like zekken, johnQT, tenz and even Zellsis, it's cooked for him. He's not gonna be on SEN next year. So, he has no room to fumble. It's all or nothing and he has to be bold imo.

#21

cobalt21312

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the payoff of getting someone new is not anywhere close to the risk of it going wrong

#22

Rey55

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If that 'someone' is any of the guys I have mentioned then it is worth it specially because sacy has been so mid for the past 2 years. 1 round he is good and then the next 3 rounds he dies without a trade.

#23

Semen-1

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'Do you not watch NA tier 2'

Do you not watch NRG? Amalgamation of the best talents that NA have to offer but they play completely dogshit. Swapping out a player for someone who is objectively mechanically better does not equal the team winning at all. I thought we learnt that already.

SEN have great chemistry between these individuals and if you really think swapping out any of these players at this current stage is a good idea you are truly braindead

#46

Rey55

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They don't have an IGL and their duelist player can't play raze, they don't have a legacy senti player but sure having a 'good' team is the problem.

#49

Semen-1

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PRX don't have a dedicated senti or igl but they make it work (albeit their insane playstyle). When people have such high ceiling this isn't an excuse, they just cant mesh well together.

ok then lets move to fnatic then, arguably the best players in their respective roles (apart from d0rke) but still underperforming. Yeah lets split the team up and move on; are we fucking braindead? Will heretics demolish their roster if they don't make it to shanghai? Even if they currently have some of the best players in the EMEA league?

Even if you were going to replace someone, who would it be and who would you replace them with?

#52

Rey55

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PRX is the only outlier you could name. They literally would hit a 5 man stack and win out. Everyone know how they play but is there any other team that can play like them and be actually good? No. Now think through why that's the case.
Fnatic doesn't have the best players in each role anymore. what are you? stupid? They were the best team last year and won 2 trophies when alfa, leo and derke were considered the best in their role. And Fnatic still might make it to Shanghai.

#53

Semen-1

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holy shit your dumb, just cause fnatic isn't performing doesn't mean that the players aren't considered the best in their roles. At their peak each of the players can hold their own. Your straight stupid for thinking that a team should rebuild after not making a master when the previously won one. Give them time to rebuild the chem.

And also why you dodging the other question. With you dogshit logic, will heretics demolish their roster if they don't make it to shanghai? Elim facing navi first up, better send ur prayers lil bro

#20

finnwithtwons

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bro said nismo and v1c im dead

#25

Al-Mawsil

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He named good players though I don’t necessarily agree with him about changing the roster for split 2 but he def named people who could make sen stay a top team

#41

finnwithtwons

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v1c and nismo do not clear any of the sen players or come close
why are people overrating v1c this hard i keep seeing it and it baffles me every time
hes decent but like hes not really anything special imo

#43

dort

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nismo and verno clear the entire SEN roster

#47

finnwithtwons

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verno clears sacy and zellsis

#50

Semen-1

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unc nismo is a flex and doesn't clear Tenz. Verno is too young

#57

Steve585858

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average delusional nrg fan

#51

Al-Mawsil

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obviously not rn, but with support, time and dedication ye they fucking could

#54

Rey55

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both of them clears sacy, any day of the week

#56

finnwithtwons

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v1c isnt worthy of turning on sacys monitor

#59

Rey55

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Achievement-wise, yes you right but quality wise v1c clears and it's not even close.

#68

finnwithtwons

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wtf possesses you people to overrate this guy this hard hes just a decent top t2 team player
hes really not all that

#69

Rey55

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I am not even saying he is insane or anything but he's still better than sacy. sacy isn't even a top 10 initiator anymore. A lot of people would be an upgrade over him.

#12

DrudaL

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After winning masters, atleast for this year keep the team together

#15

Rey55

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emotion is the hindrance to success. Madrid was kind of a mickey mouse trophy, I have to say this even though I enjoyed SEN play. Right now there at least 5 teams that are fundamentally, tactic wise and roster wise better than madrid SEN. Only finding new strats and comps are not gonna be enough for SEN to close the gap. I am just being realistic.

#70

Sinbad

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Heretics couldn't win a mickey mouse tourney sadge

#72

Rey55

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patitek tax

#18

Kettunen

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Don't give them ideas. Let them stay mid

#24

justo

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I would not blow up the roster, they need to be ahead of the curve again which a break can really help jump start.

#26

Rey55

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1 change isn't a blow up. It's just getting a mere upgrade so that you have better chances for urself against better teams. Look at EG.

#27

Aayan

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making changes now is a bad idea, after champs would be ideal, but only if necessary.
we've only really gone through 1 minor meta cycle and are on the precipice of a huge change (viper).

i think this is like saying envy shoulda changed their roster after champs cuz they lost in the GF in masters and bombed out of playoffs at champs. In the long run they still stood together to win iceland and make GF at champs next year

#55

Rey55

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I am not saying they should make multiple changes. Just get one guy with hands and they are gucci. Look at teams like LEV and KRU. They could just aim diff SEN and run it down with 5v5 site diffs. Starts are no good if Kingg just 3 pieces you with his fkin vandal. It's an FPS game!

#28

RizonE

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i would give the team this whole year and see what results they get for champs.
and based on that we can make some decisions.

#32

Rey55

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fair but if SEN bombs out they ain't gonna keep kaplan anymore. An org as big as SEn(at least in valo) needs to relevant all the time, Rob Moore has seen what success looks like on his socials interactions. If Kaplan sees that this roster would have better chance with a more consistent player than sacy then it's best for him to ask Rob Moore for a change and if he can't grant it then move one.
zekken and tenz can't perform on todays level all the time, sometimes they will be against way harder opponents so will be much more difficult for them to get impacts. That's why this team needs another gigachad player to provide that depth.

#29

Siigma777

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tourney win on the line, most important game to date on the line in Madrid (game 5 icebox vs gen) and it was Zellsis and JohnQT top fragging, with Zekken going negative with under a 1.00 rating. Sacy went +4 as well. Even though they aren't known for flashy plays everyone on the team can shoot. None of their losses this split were even bad. EG argueably, but then they beat NRG as well so it really wasn't that bad. Others were an overtime loss to Aspas setting a kill record and then loud. I'd say no worry

#30

takeshibank

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I don't know why people are so obsessed with the idea of changing a roaster after possibly dropping off a tournament. Like, 3-3 ain't even that bad? (even though they might not make it). Why do you think you can make a good decision when first of all, you don't even know what goes behind the scene, how they comm and what sacy brings to the team? You act like putting whoever verno is in will make him diff everyone automatically without even knowing the team culture. It's clear you're judging this off mechanical skill and stats which is like idk 30% of how a team functions.

#31

Rey55

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They only won against very bad teams and 100T who were very weak at the start. I am not, I watch the games and the mistakes , whiffs etc linger on in my eyes. I can't help it but I just notice individual mistakes very easily and sacy made a lot of them this split.

#33

takeshibank

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Fair, we have different opinions and thoughts when we watch games. I'd rather wait after their deserved break (zekken did mention they were burned out). Sacy wasn't even that bad to me. How can a team even grow and progress if you sub out a player every time they have a bad tour. What you see on the screen is nowhere near enough to call it an "individual mistake" if you can't even hear their comm. FNS has a shitty aim and whiffs all the time yet no one replaces him while he was playing.

#36

the_invincible49

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A valid point. If only guy diff mattered in the game, then a super team like NRG would have won everything including Madrid. Its important for the team to gel together and perform as one. Even when in a round on split in Madrid finals, zekken whiffed his shots but sacy killed them, sacy immediately consoled zekken to keep his mental. Saying that sacy adds nothing more than his gameplay to the team is strong.

Its just a bad phase when the teams who played in madrid especially at the end are at an disadvantage. You should not judge your most experienced player on this and I don't think SEN is even thinking of roaster changes.

#38

Rey55

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except sacy has been mostly unreliable for the past year and a half. He had good champs run but he started declining since 22 Reykjavik. even Brazilian LOUD fans would admit this.

#45

takeshibank

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The Madrid Trophy says otherwise? Sure he might've fallen off the level he was when he was with Loud but it makes no sense to replace him with your logic. Most of the teams would rather take team chemistry over an aim god any time of the day.

#35

TheAceGamer30

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No they won’t change their roster cus they reached success with this roster

#37

Rey55

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SEN was this close from losing against NRG. If they missed out on madrid, would you have said the same thing? success can be deceiving, a good coach or manager can easily recognize what led to that said success.
Imagine Real Madrid wins the UCL with lucas vazquez, that wouldn't mean he contributed heavily on that win and they can't upgrade that position further.

#39

TheAceGamer30

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Any normal day with sen with their original form they would’ve won sunset 13-9. NRG got away with a lot ninja defuses and sen made mistakes due to nerves zekken said this . Once they got rounds you got see the clear better team. Even if sen didn’t make Madrid they showed promise to be top 4 to go to champs. And you need to realise the only reason why teams like sen managed to get better in 2023 is because 3/5 players were on the team before. Sticking together as a core makes you have better results, think about loud now and envy/optic

#40

Rey55

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Blud TenZ and zekken literally had life games. Those are not replicable all the time and when they can't do that SEN loses. How is this not obvious? talkin about mistakes when NRG literally threw aways 11- 8 lead! making 1 change wouldn't fk up their core or synergy. It's just a QOL upgrade.

#42

TheAceGamer30

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Cus sen played better in the end of sunset lmao

#44

dort

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fr tenz and zekken had the game of their lives. that shit aint happening again

#71

Sinbad

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nrg and sen both mid of the pack teams right now, nrg aint no superteam anymore atleast SEN won madrid but ya all are cooked .

#60

Jwiw

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curry would be good in any team but he has a poor attitude.

#64

NecxGen

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I think they need to keep the team. They have a good thing going fundamentally and this team has the chops to keep getting better. Rob Moore talked about a similar thing when the Zellsis Pancada situation is happening. He said on paper, Pancada is the better player but Zellsis is the better player for the team. Both in game and out of the game, there is a level of synergy that exists that is hard to replace or even find.

The team synergy is so good with this team that I feel like they wouldn't want to lose such an integral part of what has been working for them to risk starting that over again replacing a player.

Plus this judgement is happening way too quickly. I think it would be better to make sweeping roster changes when the season is over and you can really look back at the overall performance of the team. Making mid season changes when the players are still constantly practicing to get better doesn't really capture the full picture of the potential a team has.

#66

Rey55

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That's the thing, I never once mentioned about 'sweeping changes' but people keep bringing it up for no reason. As long as they keep the core of john, zekken, tenz it would still be considered as 'keeping the team' and I don't even mind Zellsis. He is a good player and brings the balance

#67

NecxGen

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It's lowkey a jab to say that changing such a integral player isn't a sweeping change. We are talking about Sacy here. He's a whole ass person that contributes not only to game but also the vibes. It isn't as simple as swapping out a gun in a loadout, it would be working an entire new person into a system.

Sentinels this year works large in part thanks to the fact that all of these players instinctually trust each other and are close friends, it isn't as easy as just switching someone out. It would be a huge gamble to replace a player on the team without knowing if that person will vibe with the rest of the team as well as the person you are replacing. These are not light decisions and surely not one to make midseason especially when it's still clear that the team has lots of potential to work and get better

#73

Xabrusca

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Yeah bro, sen should do like NRG and get a super team no wait

stop being stupid, every team needs support players and without sacy sen wouldve even win madrid, without sacy zekken wouldnt get all those kills.

Everyone on the team has its values

#74

Rey55

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Sacy doesn't even have a good APR. stop lying to yourself

#75

the_invincible49

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Have you seen his performance in LAN and the experience that he brings into the team?
Maybe if TH had that someone with experience in their team, they would not have got so cocky against PRX and get humbled.

#76

Rey55

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https://www.vlr.gg/312799/team-heretics-vs-paper-rex-champions-tour-2024-masters-madrid-swiss-stage-r2

Experience gimmick from paTi is the reason we lost. Same will keep happening to SEN. dw

#77

the_invincible49

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You lost with the experience gimmick, but we won the masters. So please now let it go dude.
Already depressed over 2 rounds differential, don't wanna engage on this now.

#78

Rey55

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Only if sacy could shoot back and didn't go negative every damn series ahahaha